The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

[itsjustdave1988]

Zman,

All I get from the above scripture is this:
All gentiles, though not educated about God and His law, by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, and are therefor displaying how God's moral code is manifested in humans hearts. It says Christ will judge them for the "good things" they may do, but it says nothing of the sort about salvation.

So what is Christ judging them for, a consolation prize?

I guess we'll have to disagree yet again, Zman. St. Justin Martyr, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, and one of my favorites, St. Augustine of Hippo, seem to disagree with you as well.

"... when we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body, since all who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark through the same water" (ibid) (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 5:28:39 [A.D. 400]).

God bless,

 

[Z Man]

Everyone will be judged for their good deeds and bad, but because of the bad ones, we will be punished, unless we have the covering of the blood of Christ for the remission of our sins...

 

[shima]

Z Man
>>Everyone will be judged for their good deeds and bad, but because of the bad ones, we will be punished, unless we have the covering of the blood of Christ for the remission of our sins...<<

Ofcourse, perhaps its just a judgement of good and bad deeds, without all this Jezus' business. After all, the Hindu's could be correct.

Or, perhaps there is no judgement at all other than the flashback one usually encounters at the "end" of life and your own judgement is the only one that matters.

 

[RogerB]

You may be close minded, misguided and deceived but Satan you're not.

Besides, it's just a mustache and goatee.

 

[wickwoman]

I agree. The Hindus are right.

I agree. The Hindus are right.

Originally posted by shima
Z Man
>>Everyone will be judged for their good deeds and bad, but because of the bad ones, we will be punished, unless we have the covering of the blood of Christ for the remission of our sins...<<

Ofcourse, perhaps its just a judgement of good and bad deeds, without all this Jezus' business. After all, the Hindu's could be correct.

Or, perhaps there is no judgement at all other than the flashback one usually encounters at the "end" of life and your own judgement is the only one that matters.

"When he is seen within us and without,
He sets right all doubts and dispels the pain
Of wrong actions committed in the past."

-Mundaka Upanishad

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Zman,

Everyone will be judged for their good deeds and bad, but because of the bad ones, we will be punished, unless we have the covering of the blood of Christ for the remission of our sins...

Gotta disagree with you again Zman. Even those in Christ are punished for their sins. We cannot, as Luther says "Sin boldy" because we know that we are saved. This is a sin of presumption. We don't know who is and who is not saved. That is God's judgement alone. Furthermore, forgiveness for sins and punishment for sins are two separate things. For example, King David was forgiven by God for murder and adultery ... then punished severely for the sins he committed. Punishment exists even after forgiveness of sins.

So, be good ... avoid sin and even the near occasion of sin. Follow your conscience (the aboriginal Vicar of Christ), even if you are baptized in Christ or among the other mortals merely struggling to figure out this God stuff. However, don't stop informing your conscience. Listen to other viewpoints, read about other beliefs, and don't be afraid to make a choice even if the evidence isn't all that understandable. If you're a theist, pray a lot. If you're an atheist, try praying too--you just might be wrong and if your not wrong, you have nothing to lose. I'm praying for you as well.

God bless,

 

[shima]

itsjustdave1988:
>>So, be good ... avoid sin and even the near occasion of sin. Follow your conscience (the aboriginal Vicar of Christ), even if you are baptized in Christ or among the other mortals merely struggling to figure out this God stuff. However, don't stop informing your conscience. Listen to other viewpoints, read about other beliefs, and don't be afraid to make a choice even if the evidence isn't all that understandable. <<

Thank you. Should your viewpoint be true, then christianity agrees with most religions on the nature of how to reach "heaven" (or its equivalent in other religions) by at least trying to be a "good" person. Naturally, most people tend not to agree on what constitutes a "good" person, although there are a few common points.

I follow my own internal moral compass, and this has served me well in the past. I have no doubt it will continue to do so in the future, although sometimes its not as easy as it sound. But then again, if it so easy to be "good", the world would not be the mess it is today. Nevertheless, we humans are taught certain "good" things by society which I tend not to agree with.

As most of us have seen Star Trek, I cannot help but wonder if our society will ever be able to rise above the egocentric mindset of today. As long as we value wealth above most other things, this simply cannot and will not happen. Its such a shame, because there are far more important things in life than the acquisition of wealth. I could name a few: friendship, love, happyness (and not just your own), experience, freedom, personal development.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

shima,

Well, as Zakath pointed out, we would be hard pressed to find 10 Catholics at TOL. In other words, although Catholicism is the most ancient and largest form of Christianity, consisting of ~54% of all of Christians in the world, TOL provides a very Protestant perspective to Christianity. So my viewpoint may be shared by only a few Christians at TOL.

Standing by for the non-Catholic rebuttal.

"Evangelize always. When necessary, use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

God bless,

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
shima,

Well, as Zakath pointed out, we would be hard pressed to find 10 Catholics at TOL. In other words, although Catholicism is the most ancient and largest form of Christianity, consisting of ~54% of all of Christians in the world, TOL provides a very Protestant perspective to Christianity. So my viewpoint may be shared by only a few Christians at TOL.

Standing by for the non-Catholic rebuttal.

"Evangelize always. When necessary, use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

God bless,

Dave--

I think we all agree on the essentials however---that there is One God who is triune in nature. I believe there are a few dozen Catholics at TOL.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988 Standing by for the non-Catholic rebuttal.

"Evangelize always. When necessary, use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

God bless,

Here it is:

Good job JustDave, that was very succinct. I would just add that we are to shun even the appearance of evil. I have long believed that Catholics and Protestants have a lot more in common than either of them care to admit. I believe that a believer is a believer. I don't ask anyone their denomination, and don't look for marks of it. I look at fruit, and that in admiration, not as a self-appointed inspector.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
Zman,

Gotta disagree with you again Zman. Even those in Christ are punished for their sins. We cannot, as Luther says "Sin boldy" because we know that we are saved. This is a sin of presumption. We don't know who is and who is not saved. That is God's judgement alone. Furthermore, forgiveness for sins and punishment for sins are two separate things. For example, King David was forgiven by God for murder and adultery ... then punished severely for the sins he committed. Punishment exists even after forgiveness of sins.

I agree.

So, be good ... avoid sin and even the near occasion of sin. Follow your conscience...

My conscience is why I got in trouble in the first place! My nature is sin, and unless God has saved me, following my conscience isn't such a good idea...

However, don't stop informing your conscience.

That's why I read the Bible.

Listen to other viewpoints, read about other beliefs,

That's why I post here.

and don't be afraid to make a choice even if the evidence isn't all that understandable.

I think every person who declares to believe in Christ does this; it's called faith.

I'm praying for you as well.

Thanks Dave. I'll be praying for you as well, cause Lord knows we all need it!

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by RogerB
THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC, EMPERICAL PROOF OF GOD'S EXISTENCE - SO STOP ASKING FOR IT....OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You win.

I think I shall print this out, frame it, and hang it on my wall...

 

[Gerald]

Come on, Knight!

In the interest of civility, how about giving Zakath and me a definition of witchcraft?

 

[Aimiel]

Here ya' go...

Here ya' go...

Witchcraft, divination and sorcery are interchangeable. Namely: Satanic power. Satan's way of imposing his will on yours; as well as imposing on people emotions, behaviors or circumstances they would not otherwise want, primarily witchcraft operates through spells and curses; divination through fortune-telling and sorcery through objects.

 

[RogerB]

I think I shall print this out, frame it, and hang it on my wall...

Some people can't see the forest for the trees...:doh:

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
Witchcraft, divination and sorcery are interchangeable. Namely: Satanic power. Satan's way of imposing his will on yours; as well as imposing on people emotions, behaviors or circumstances they would not otherwise want, primarily witchcraft operates through spells and curses; divination through fortune-telling and sorcery through objects.

Thank you.

Now, remember, Knight advocates executing people for this; this might be defensible if it could be demonstrated that spells and curses and such actually work, and that people who do these things present a clear and present to their surroundings.

Then you have the problem of determining if a spell or curse has actually been cast; in an account I read once, a local brewer discovers that his batch has gone sour. He looks out the window and sees a neighbor lady sitting by her window, stroking the cat on her lap. So he concludes (and this is where it gets good) that the neighbor lady caused his batch to go bad. He then has her hauled up before a magistrate, accusing her of witchcraft.

To me, this demonstrates, not witchcraft, but profound stupidity.

If you believe in spells and curses, you just about have no choice but to also believe in psychic powers (telepathy, clairvoyance, channeling, levitation, etc.) and other such tomfoolery, like ghosts.

Now, I own several pieces of what could be called magical paraphenalia:

• 1 Magic 8-Ball (because they're funny)
• 1 Ouija Board (see above)
• 3 Tarot decks (because they're all like little works of art)
• 1 set of runestones (see above)
• 1 copy of the Necronomicon (because it was cheap and looks pretty)
• 1 copy of Teen Witch by Silver Ravenwolf (because it was cheap and I like the cover illustration)

Now, I don't believe that any of this stuff has paranormal properties, and I am inclined to question the sanity of anyone who seriously believes that it does, and believes that I present a danger to myself and my surroundings by owning it.

Have you guessed yet that I think recriminalizing witchcraft is a ridiculous notion...?

 

[Aimiel]

Friendship Week is Welcome

Friendship Week is Welcome

It's good that you have those things. Your father is very proud of them and one day, you will be surprised at his identity and your own destiny. Satan wants the world to believe that he does not exist. One day, he will rule this earth through someone who he will possesss, completely, the Beast or Anti-Christ. I believe that in that day there will be many extremely powerful witches and sorcerers who will convince many that Satan IS god.

 

[Gerald]

Re: Friendship Week is Welcome

Re: Friendship Week is Welcome

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
It's good that you have those things. Your father is very proud of them and one day, you will be surprised at his identity and your own destiny. Satan wants the world to believe that he does not exist. One day, he will rule this earth through someone who he will possesss, completely, the Beast or Anti-Christ. I believe that in that day there will be many extremely powerful witches and sorcerers who will convince many that Satan IS god.

Nice sermon; do you get paid for it?

If any "extremely powerful witches and sorcerers" ever deign to show up, I'll be more than happy to demonstrate how full of baloney they are.

A swift kick to the joy zone usually suffices...

 

[Aimiel]

Swift Kick

Swift Kick

And what if they are able (now that the restraining influence of Christians has been taken off the earth, and there are only a handful {144,000, eventually} Jews preaching the Gospel) to cause your leg to fall off as you pull it back, or perhaps simply call down fire to consume you?

 

[Gerald]

Re: Swift Kick

Re: Swift Kick

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
And what if they are able (now that the restraining influence of Christians has been taken off the earth, and there are only a handful {144,000, eventually} Jews preaching the Gospel) to cause your leg to fall off as you pull it back, or perhaps simply call down fire to consume you?

And I thought I read too many comic books...

Funny how there weren't any sorcerers/witches, etc. who could do that before there were Christians...unless you believe ancient myths are based on facts. Certainly you don't believe Marduk really battled Tiamat...

And I think you've come up with an absolutely wonderful cop-out for explaining why magic, psychic powers, etc. don't work: the mere presence of Christians prevents reality from flipping out, and when they all leave, all the nasty critters, none of whose existence has been effectively demonstrated, will suddenly materialize and start having a global block party.

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

I once ran afoul of a yutz who was convinced he could call down fire and pestilence on me. As I am sitting here writing, obviously he failed to do so.

So, either I'm being protected from magic by some means, or there's no magic spells to be cast.

It appears to me that you would be willing to entertain the notion that it was at least possible for the neighbor lady to ruin the brewer's batch by supernatural means...