temple2006
New member
FG7...An eclipse is not the only event that can cause darkness during mid-day.
The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Gerald
Resident Fiend
Jack, I found a link you'll probably like:
http://www.survivalscience.org/debunk/ww/toc.shtml
It is perfect for use against us mean ol' skeptics...
http://www.survivalscience.org/debunk/ww/toc.shtml
It is perfect for use against us mean ol' skeptics...
Last edited:
Z Man
New member
I never refused to produce them, I'm just too lazy to search for them on the internet.
Besides, I'm not the one doing the "life searching"; you are. If you're really serious about finding more evidence for Jesus Christ, then you will look for it yourself.If you can't find them yourself, all I'm left to assume is that you didn't try at all.You made the claim. If you cannot produce them, all I'm left to assume is that you were mistaken or you lied.
But it's not because Christians haven't produced the evidence, it's because you refuse to believe...
I would have pretty much said what Jay did.
Because I have nothing else to do.If you truly believe that evidence is worthless, then why do you engage in apologetics arguments with atheists?
Besides, you kept asking me questions and I thought maybe I could share something with you that you haven't heard of or knew before. The numerous accounts of evidence that Christians not only present in the Bible, but also in other accounts, is extremely valid. You just choose not to believe in any of it. It's not our problem you don't believe; its yours.
Waiting for what? God has given us more than enough evidence to show His existence.
Ateists remind me of little kids that refuse to go somewhere, so their parents have to pick them up and carry them to get them to go through the door.... :crackup:
God gives every bird his food, but he does not throw
it into the nest.
JOSIAH GILBERT HOLLAND (1819–1881)
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Well I certainly wouldn't want you to be dishonest.
You raise an interesting point. I would ask, did your "enlightenment" about the scriptures precede your "accepting God into your life" or did it occur afterwards?
I've already read it. Merely because a religious book mentions Pilate, Herod, or even Lazarus does not provide content validity for the religious text. The text merely contains references to some characters that were historically real. I've read other religions' scriptures for which the same claim can be made. The Qu'ran and Bhagavad Gita both mention historical figures. That does not make their religious claims any more or less valid.
No, if it was, I would have cited it. The citation is from Dr. James Tabor's, professor of Religious Studies at UNC, translation of Josephus provided in a set of lecture notes from one of his courses at UNC "The Jewish Roman World of Jesus". He is currently working on the most recently released materials related to the Qumran Scrolls. I apologize for not citing Tabor.
Well you and I do not agree here.
The main difference between the two versions is that in what you refer to as the minimalist version, the author merely cites the beliefs of others. IIRC, Josephus cites beliefs about several allegedly miraculous events ascribed to famous Romans without actually stating he believed them.
Before ascribing too much accuracy to Josephus, let's examine a few other passages from the Antiquities and you can tell me what you think of their likely historical accuracy.
Quote #1 – Using magical rings and incantations developed by Solomon for exorcism
Quote #'s 2-6
So you expect me to accept the veracity of a fellow who reports that cow gave birth to a lamb in the temple at Jerusalem? An author who described all of these wondrous events, yet he never described a single miracle performed by someone he supposedly alleges to be the Jewish Messiah? Seems a bit out of character…
Next topic.
When I provided a citation from a Talmudic source you replied:
Interesting. To which of Yeshu HaNotzri's "miracles" do you refer? So far as I know, there are none listed in the Talmud.
The single passage I cited previously does not deal with this individual. I believe you're thinking of a different passage, perhaps you could provide a rendering of the passage and a citation as I did.
Would you provide your translation of this citation? The one I have has no reference to Egypt. Also, the Yeshu referred to in my citation was hanged (not crucified) by a Jewish court on the day before Passover. This raises several points:
- first, this Yeshu did not live in Jesus' time, he lived during the reign of Alexander Janneus (about 103 BCE to 76 BCE), remember the Jews in Jesus' time did not have the right to execute prisoners (hence the whole story in the gospels involving Pilate),
- second this person was not executed on Passover as the Christians teach.
I assume you meant "Trypho". Justin Martyr wrote during the second century AD. I would suggest that it is quite possible that Trypho may be an invented character and the work merely an vehicle for Justin's conversion story and an apologetics reader. Something akin, perhaps to the demons Wormwood and Screwtape in C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters". BTW, I read a translation of the text you cited and did not find the reference. The entire 69th Chapter consists of a monologue by Justin Martyr. Perhaps you could post the text you are referring to here.
You may be aware that there was another Trypho associated with the Church Fathers, a student of Origen's.
I'll let the translator speak to this reference. "This work is a paragraph by paragraph demolition of the lost anti-Christian pamphlet "The True Doctrine" by the philosopher Celsus. Celsus wrote around 178 AD, but the work did not come into Origen's hands until the early third century. Origen questions whether anyone will ever have seen the pamphlet -- he had not himself before now -- but at the request of a friend he has refuted it." - J. Armitage ROBINSON, The Philocalia of Origen: The text revised with a critical introduction and indices. Cambridge University Press/New York:Macmillan (1893).
The weakness of your last two items is that neither of them are non-Christian historical references. Both Justin and Origen were Christian writers. The alleged work by Celsum has not survived so there is no way to ascertain what it actually contained. Indeed Origen's work does not survive as an autograph and exists only in variant copies a number of European libraries. The oldest surviving copy of Origen's work is from the 13th century, almost one thousand years after the originals were written.
Please, tell me you're not using a Hellenistic magic text (Papyri Graceae Magicae) as an historical proof for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth??? :crackup:
Unfortunately for this discussion, as an empiricist, I do not keep copies of alleged magical formulae lying about the place.
Could you provide an example of what you mean here, i.e. actual textual citation. I'd like to see your answers to the above before we investigate more.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Well you're not gonna win many souls fer Jesus by bein' lazy, sonny!
Been doing it for years. You have provided little concrete to discuss, and certainly nothing new.
I'll leave you to your self-described sloth and continue with people who actually have something to offer to the conversation.
temple2006
New member
FG7....Funeeeeee......
Aimiel
Well-known member
Zakath will Never Come to God Except He Believes
Zakath will Never Come to God Except He Believes
Zakath,
He is available, but you have to believe that he exists to find him, otherwise you are just musing (or perhaps amusing yourself).
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Zakath will Never Come to God Except He Believes
Zakath,
He is available, but you have to believe that he exists to find him, otherwise you are just musing (or perhaps amusing yourself).
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
I agree with famousgandalf that the key issue with Zakath is one of faith but nonetheless the foolishness of atheism is such that sometimes it needs to be answered in its own terms lest its followers feel themselves wise in their own eyes. Christians are also called to give a reason for the hope they have and to take every thought captive for Christ. So because I had the time today and in response to Zakaths comments:
I have known God all my life even before I learnt to read. But I was read the scriptures even as a child. It was my favourite book as a child especially the old testament. Though now after all the ups and downs of my Christian life I find the New Testament a richer read. I would not separate God from his scriptures in my own experience or in reality. Both have proven in practice as reliable as each other.
The Qu'ran (7th Century) mentions historical figures like Jesus(Yeshua) but like the Babylonian Talmud (6th century) suffers from its distance from the life of Yeshua and from its theological biases regarding him.
Josephus's Antiquities of he Jews (93-94AD) is near to the events of the life of Christ and feeds of the sources and conversations of the time of Christ for his history. While it is clear that there are inaccuracies in him and that he often mishandled his sources there are also large numbers of correlations with Biblical events which have a remarkable consistency with the Biblical account.
So for example Book 18 Chap 3 -55
"But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea....."
So Pilate was procurator of Judea at the time of Jesus
Book 18 Chap 3 -63
"Now there was about this time Jesus......."
Tacitus also tells that Pontius Pilate put the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, to death in the reign of Tiberius, Emperor of Rome.
So you have the affirmation of an historical assertion made by scripture relating to the events around about the time of Christ as the Procurator mentioned in scripture as being over Judea was indeed Pontius Pilate. Which ties in with archaeological evidence like the Pilate stone in the Jerusalem Museum as to the historical existence of a major character in the Biblical account. If the historical reality of these characters is accepted then the Biblical accounts become interesting as historical documents providing historical commentary. Documents which like those of Josephus's need to be scrutinised and tested but which appear to tie in with alternative source evidence available. Suddenly the eye witness accounts in them of miracles, resurrections and the life and times of Yeshua are not as incredible as a dogmatic denial of the validity of scripture implies.
I grant that is the difference quoting the Arabic or the traditional translation would mean. Nonetheless it confirms that these were the notions being discussed about the life of an historical person called Jesus Christ and that as in the Bible miraculous events have been attributed to him by his followers. The debate about who Jesus was, was already in circulation at this point and worthy of mention in Josephus's history to a Roman audience.
The debate is evident in Justin works and in Origens addressing of the points raised by Celsus. Also in the mockery of Tertullian.
CELSUS in C2nd - Origen, Contra Celsum 1.28 -
Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.
TERTULLIAN - late in 2nd century -De Spetaculis 100.30
This is your carpenter's son, your harlot's son;[1] your Sabbath-breaker, your Samaritan[2], your demon-possessed! This is he whom you bought from Judas. This is he who was struck with reeds and fists, dishonored with spittle, and given a draught of gall and vinegar! This is he whom his disciples have stolen secretly, that it may be said, 'He has risen', or the gardener abstracted that his lettuces might not be damaged by the crowds of visitors![3]
The BABYLONIAN TALMUD SOURCE - Sanhedrin 107b || Sota 47a (except for the last sentence) Translation from - Mead, R.S. Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?. London: Theosophical Publishing Society, 1903. Goldstein, Morris, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, New York Macmillan Co., 1950.
The Rabbis taught: The left should always be used to push away, and the right, on the other hand to draw nearer. But one should not do it as Elisha who pushed Gehazi away, nor as R. Joshua ben Perachiah, who pushed away Yeshu with both hands. What was the problem with R. Joshua ben Perachiah? When King Jannai ordered the extermination of the Rabbis, R. Joshua ben Perachiah and Yeshu fled to Alexandria. When it was safe to return, Rabbi Simeon ben Shetach sent him a letter:
From me, Jerusalem the holy city, to the Alexandria in Egypt, my sister. My spouse tarries in your midst, and I sit desolate.
Joshua set off at once. During the trip they happened upon an inn in which they treated him with great respect. Joshua commented, "How fair is this inn[1]." Yeshu replied, "But Rabbi, she[1] has unattractive eyes."[2] Joshua replied, "You godless person, do you fill your mind with such things?" Then he had 400 trumpets sounded and anathematized him. Yeshu often came and said to him, "Receive me back." Joshua paid no attention. One day, while Joshua was reciting the Shema, Yeshu came to him, hoping for a reprieve. Joshua made a sign to him with his hand. [3] Yeshu misunderstood, thinking he had been repulsed, so he went away set up a brick and worshipped it. Joshua said to him, "Repent!" Yeshu replied, "I learned this from you: 'Anyone who sins and causes the people to sin, is not allowed the possibility of repentance.'"
[The Teacher said: "Yeshu practiced sorcery and corrupted and misled Israel."]
The Toledoth Yeshu. - too long to quote here but try:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html
Baraitha Bab. Sanhedrin 43a
The translation is informed by both Goldstein:22,109ff and Mead:178f,210f.
There is a tradition (in a Barraitha): They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover[1]. But for forty days before that a herald went in front of him (crying), "Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God[2]. Anyone who can provide evidence on his behalf should come forward to defend him." When, however, nothing favorable about him was found, he was hanged on the Sabbath of the Passover[1].
Ulla[3] commented: "Do you think that he belongs among those for whom redeeming evidence is sought? Rather, he was a seducer [of whom] the All-merciful has said: 'Show them no pity... and do not shield them.' (Deut 13.8b NRSV)[4] In Yeshu's case, however, an exception was made because he was close to those who held [political/religious] authority."
"They hanged Jesus of Nazareth on the Eve of Passover because he practised sorcery and was leading Israel astray." (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 43b) (Does not refer to Egypt in this version - might be an alternative version of Talmud - but cannot find this)
I grant you that the above passages are not always particularly convincing ( though 43b is not too bad for this debate) and hardly flattering to the Christian cause but they may well refer to a distorted reading of the life of Christ as the Jewish community tried to formulate its response to Christianity. However the time distance and the discrepancies and general hostility of the Jewish community to Christ probably mean that Jewish talmud, Mishnah or other writings is not the best way to attest to Jesus's historical existence or paranormal activities. The sources lack credibility because the people who wrote them were not honest with the realities they were describing or about the person they were commenting on.
Many Jews with philosophical training were converted at that time from paul onwards so it is not implausible to believe that Trypho existed.
The text in the Dialogues Chapter LXIX concerning the accusation by the Jews that Jesus was a magician (but not that he specifically learnt his art in Egypt - a reference I cannot find here):
See http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm for rest of the text.
I like the above quote from Justins Dialogue.
I grant you this sort of text is not the best way to affirm my case even if they do show that Jesus is in circulation even here. I would have liked to debate the scriptures but instead found myself wading through the corrupted thoughts of men whose hearts were hardened against Yeshua and who minds have similarly been darkened by their unbelief.
But for now I have a life and the Light to return to.
I have known God all my life even before I learnt to read. But I was read the scriptures even as a child. It was my favourite book as a child especially the old testament. Though now after all the ups and downs of my Christian life I find the New Testament a richer read. I would not separate God from his scriptures in my own experience or in reality. Both have proven in practice as reliable as each other.
The Qu'ran (7th Century) mentions historical figures like Jesus(Yeshua) but like the Babylonian Talmud (6th century) suffers from its distance from the life of Yeshua and from its theological biases regarding him.
Josephus's Antiquities of he Jews (93-94AD) is near to the events of the life of Christ and feeds of the sources and conversations of the time of Christ for his history. While it is clear that there are inaccuracies in him and that he often mishandled his sources there are also large numbers of correlations with Biblical events which have a remarkable consistency with the Biblical account.
So for example Book 18 Chap 3 -55
"But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea....."
So Pilate was procurator of Judea at the time of Jesus
Book 18 Chap 3 -63
"Now there was about this time Jesus......."
Tacitus also tells that Pontius Pilate put the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, to death in the reign of Tiberius, Emperor of Rome.
So you have the affirmation of an historical assertion made by scripture relating to the events around about the time of Christ as the Procurator mentioned in scripture as being over Judea was indeed Pontius Pilate. Which ties in with archaeological evidence like the Pilate stone in the Jerusalem Museum as to the historical existence of a major character in the Biblical account. If the historical reality of these characters is accepted then the Biblical accounts become interesting as historical documents providing historical commentary. Documents which like those of Josephus's need to be scrutinised and tested but which appear to tie in with alternative source evidence available. Suddenly the eye witness accounts in them of miracles, resurrections and the life and times of Yeshua are not as incredible as a dogmatic denial of the validity of scripture implies.
I grant that is the difference quoting the Arabic or the traditional translation would mean. Nonetheless it confirms that these were the notions being discussed about the life of an historical person called Jesus Christ and that as in the Bible miraculous events have been attributed to him by his followers. The debate about who Jesus was, was already in circulation at this point and worthy of mention in Josephus's history to a Roman audience.
The debate is evident in Justin works and in Origens addressing of the points raised by Celsus. Also in the mockery of Tertullian.
CELSUS in C2nd - Origen, Contra Celsum 1.28 -
Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.
TERTULLIAN - late in 2nd century -De Spetaculis 100.30
This is your carpenter's son, your harlot's son;[1] your Sabbath-breaker, your Samaritan[2], your demon-possessed! This is he whom you bought from Judas. This is he who was struck with reeds and fists, dishonored with spittle, and given a draught of gall and vinegar! This is he whom his disciples have stolen secretly, that it may be said, 'He has risen', or the gardener abstracted that his lettuces might not be damaged by the crowds of visitors![3]
The BABYLONIAN TALMUD SOURCE - Sanhedrin 107b || Sota 47a (except for the last sentence) Translation from - Mead, R.S. Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?. London: Theosophical Publishing Society, 1903. Goldstein, Morris, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, New York Macmillan Co., 1950.
The Rabbis taught: The left should always be used to push away, and the right, on the other hand to draw nearer. But one should not do it as Elisha who pushed Gehazi away, nor as R. Joshua ben Perachiah, who pushed away Yeshu with both hands. What was the problem with R. Joshua ben Perachiah? When King Jannai ordered the extermination of the Rabbis, R. Joshua ben Perachiah and Yeshu fled to Alexandria. When it was safe to return, Rabbi Simeon ben Shetach sent him a letter:
From me, Jerusalem the holy city, to the Alexandria in Egypt, my sister. My spouse tarries in your midst, and I sit desolate.
Joshua set off at once. During the trip they happened upon an inn in which they treated him with great respect. Joshua commented, "How fair is this inn[1]." Yeshu replied, "But Rabbi, she[1] has unattractive eyes."[2] Joshua replied, "You godless person, do you fill your mind with such things?" Then he had 400 trumpets sounded and anathematized him. Yeshu often came and said to him, "Receive me back." Joshua paid no attention. One day, while Joshua was reciting the Shema, Yeshu came to him, hoping for a reprieve. Joshua made a sign to him with his hand. [3] Yeshu misunderstood, thinking he had been repulsed, so he went away set up a brick and worshipped it. Joshua said to him, "Repent!" Yeshu replied, "I learned this from you: 'Anyone who sins and causes the people to sin, is not allowed the possibility of repentance.'"
[The Teacher said: "Yeshu practiced sorcery and corrupted and misled Israel."]
The Toledoth Yeshu. - too long to quote here but try:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html
Baraitha Bab. Sanhedrin 43a
The translation is informed by both Goldstein:22,109ff and Mead:178f,210f.
There is a tradition (in a Barraitha): They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover[1]. But for forty days before that a herald went in front of him (crying), "Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God[2]. Anyone who can provide evidence on his behalf should come forward to defend him." When, however, nothing favorable about him was found, he was hanged on the Sabbath of the Passover[1].
Ulla[3] commented: "Do you think that he belongs among those for whom redeeming evidence is sought? Rather, he was a seducer [of whom] the All-merciful has said: 'Show them no pity... and do not shield them.' (Deut 13.8b NRSV)[4] In Yeshu's case, however, an exception was made because he was close to those who held [political/religious] authority."
"They hanged Jesus of Nazareth on the Eve of Passover because he practised sorcery and was leading Israel astray." (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 43b) (Does not refer to Egypt in this version - might be an alternative version of Talmud - but cannot find this)
I grant you that the above passages are not always particularly convincing ( though 43b is not too bad for this debate) and hardly flattering to the Christian cause but they may well refer to a distorted reading of the life of Christ as the Jewish community tried to formulate its response to Christianity. However the time distance and the discrepancies and general hostility of the Jewish community to Christ probably mean that Jewish talmud, Mishnah or other writings is not the best way to attest to Jesus's historical existence or paranormal activities. The sources lack credibility because the people who wrote them were not honest with the realities they were describing or about the person they were commenting on.
Many Jews with philosophical training were converted at that time from paul onwards so it is not implausible to believe that Trypho existed.
The text in the Dialogues Chapter LXIX concerning the accusation by the Jews that Jesus was a magician (but not that he specifically learnt his art in Egypt - a reference I cannot find here):
See http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm for rest of the text.
I like the above quote from Justins Dialogue.
I grant you this sort of text is not the best way to affirm my case even if they do show that Jesus is in circulation even here. I would have liked to debate the scriptures but instead found myself wading through the corrupted thoughts of men whose hearts were hardened against Yeshua and who minds have similarly been darkened by their unbelief.
But for now I have a life and the Light to return to.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Re: Zakath will Never Come to God Except He Believes
Re: Zakath will Never Come to God Except He Believes
Great cosmic events and powers manifest continually without one iota of faith on my part.
Yet the one thing allegedly more important than all of them, the thing that is required for my allegedly eternal destiny, is not manifested, but hidden???
The undeniable proof of the existence of the creator of the universe, upon whom allegedly rests existence itself depends upon my miserable little quanta of "faith".
Now that's a serious flaw in design!
Re: Zakath will Never Come to God Except He Believes
I've always been amazed that every day...
- the sun moon and stars manage to shine on the world somewhere, whether I believe it or not
- the electricity manages to flow through my computer, whether I believe it or not
- the rain falls from the sky around the planet, whether I believe it or not
- gravity causes my newspaper to fall in the flowerbed, whether I believe it or not
Great cosmic events and powers manifest continually without one iota of faith on my part.
Yet the one thing allegedly more important than all of them, the thing that is required for my allegedly eternal destiny, is not manifested, but hidden???
The undeniable proof of the existence of the creator of the universe, upon whom allegedly rests existence itself depends upon my miserable little quanta of "faith".
Now that's a serious flaw in design!
itsjustdave1988
Member
Zakath,
St. Justin Martyr offered this assessment of how one "belongs" to the Church of Christ, and specifically mentions the pagan philosopher Socrates:
In other words, you may have hope yet. Do what your conscience tells you Zakath. Catholicisim calls the conscience the "aboriginal Vicar of Christ." God will speak to you through your conscience, whether you believe it or not. It is as sure to me as how "the sun moon and stars manage to shine on the world somewhere, whether I believe it or not."
God bless,
I can't speak for other forms of theism, however, according to Catholic teaching, those who are unintentionally ignorant of Christ's gospel and his church may also attain eternal salvation.
St. Justin Martyr offered this assessment of how one "belongs" to the Church of Christ, and specifically mentions the pagan philosopher Socrates:
This statement seems to be a very clear example of what St. Paul must have meant when writing to the Romans a century earlier:
One more example of this broad understanding of membership in the partially invisible and mysterious Body of Christ comes from the moving funeral oration of St. Gregory of Nazianzus, which he offered on the occasion of his father's death in A.D. 374:
In other words, you may have hope yet. Do what your conscience tells you Zakath. Catholicisim calls the conscience the "aboriginal Vicar of Christ." God will speak to you through your conscience, whether you believe it or not. It is as sure to me as how "the sun moon and stars manage to shine on the world somewhere, whether I believe it or not."
God bless,
Zakath
Resident Atheist
You're not telling me you're answering me with foolishness, are you?
Thank you for sharing a bit of your background. I'm glad you had the time to post. Now let's see about captivity and bondage…
While it acknowledges the author's belief in certain tales about figures believable to the author (or the one's the author interviewed), it does nothing to bolster the claims of Christians beyond pointing out that "the people who wrote the Qu'ran" believed that someone named Jesus of Nazareth existed.
Again, I raise the point that mere correlation of some biblical personages with non-biblical historical records does not provide any support for uncorroborated events, like miracles or theological claims. For example, the fact that Pilate was a Roman official in Judea does not enhance claims for the accuracy of the crucifixion story. It merely shows that whoever wrote the Antiquities, found Pilate, Herod, and even the Jewish high priest in the historical records of his time.
To follow such logic, we would have to ascribe similar credence to Hindu claims of historical personages (kings and generals) interacting with Hindu deities. Somehow, I seriously doubt that any "bible believing Christian" would find such evidence supportive of Hindu claims that their scriptures and doctrine are true.
I presume you are speaking of the passage from Annals 15.44. Reread the passage and you'll find two interesting points. First is that Pilate was not actually a procurator but, during the time of Tiberius, he would have been titled "prefect". Secondly, reading further in the passage discloses that Tacitus calls Christianity a "rursum superstitio" or mischievous superstition. While he puts Pilate in the correct place at the correct time, he does nothing to portray the Christian faith in a positive light. His dislike for foreign religions is only exceeded by his dislike for Nero.
Any number of religions have analogous positions. Historians have mentioned miracles attributed to Roman emperors, Greek, Hindu, Sumerian, and Egyptian deities by their followers. Such mentions merely indicate that their followers thought miracles had occurred. They do not provide substantive evidence for the veracity of the miracles themselves.
Thank you for finding the quote.
I do not see how a second-hand quotation from a Greek allegedly writing almost one hundred years after the time Jesus was supposed to have lived, bolsters the credibility of the gospel stories. Particularly when the author paints the "Jesus" in his story as the illegitimate son of a Roman (automatically invalidating any claim to messiahship) and a fraudulent Egyptian-trained magician. A bastard could not ascend to the throne in Israel and a magician would be outcast from Jewish religious circles. As I demonstrated in my previous post there were several versions of the "Egyptian magician" stories of Yeshu that survive to today and none of them took place during the time when Jesus of Nazareth was alleged to have lived.
This document "On the Games" is an argument written by Tertullian, a Christian cleric, on the impropriety of Christians attending the gladiatorial games in Carthage. The document has only thirty chapters. The citation you provide does not come from any version of De Spectaculis I've been able to locate.
The BABYLONIAN TALMUD SOURCE - Sanhedrin 107b || Sota 47a (except for the last sentence) Translation from - Mead, R.S. Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?. London: Theosophical Publishing Society, 1903. Goldstein, Morris, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, New York Macmillan Co., 1950. [/quote]Thank you for providing your source. But I've got to say that I see why you did not provide them before.
Theosophy? This is the second "magical" source you have presented. Are you aware that Madame Blavatsky, her religion, and her followers would be considered in a very bad light and very poor scholarly support by many of the Christians posting to this board? Claiming that the theosophists believe that Jesus exists is something akin to citing Anton Lavey and his Church of Satan as bona fide proof for the existence of Christianity. Your quote was substantially similar to the one I had used. My previous post explained why this quote was unlikely to be referring to Jesus of Nazareth.
I went to the link and read the following introduction:
<Sigh> Please note that the person who posted this piece to the web plainly states that it is written as a slander piece and somewhere between 500 to 1300 years after the events in question. This document contains the tale of Miriam's rape, the story of how Jeshu came by his quabbalistic magical powers, his interview by "Queen Helene" (of Adiabene?), and many other adventures. Such a fantastic document hardly provides historical support for the veracity of the Christian religion.
Again, please be aware that Yeshu (and its variants) were common names in first century Palestine. It's someone akin to locating a specific individual named "Jesus" in Mexico City.
Several points about this reference:
- 1. This citation has Yeshu being executed on Passover eve, not Passover. This is a very important distinction for Christianity.
2. Scholars believe that the Yeshu in this story is the same one referred to in your previous citation. Thus this story took place almost one hundred years before Jesus of Nazareth was born.
3. This Yeshu was hanged by the Jews, not the Romans, in direct contradiction to the gospel stories.
4. There is also the problem that Jesus of Nazareth is never described as having friends in the Roman government. This is merely another observation being a bit weak since it's and argument from silence.
Thank you for being honest.
Certainly it is possible, but it is also quite feasible that Trypho was merely a literary tool to serve as a foil for Justin's apology. If that were the case, then any argument proposed by "Trypho" were based on information already in the Justin's Christian community at that time. The same logic applies to all the content of Justin's "Dialogue".
Enjoy!
Z Man
New member
Wow Zakath, I thought "nicey week" started tomorrow?Originally posted by Zakath
Thank you for that bit of encouragement Dave. Very appropriate for an "Easter message".
I'll definitely keep looking, and listening to my conscience.
If there is a deity out there, perhaps I'll find him yet.
temple2006
New member
Zak...Happy Bunny Day...I don't think that the deity is "out there".
The kingdom of God is within you. I think you are looking in the wrong places maybe, like the Urban Cowboy song goes "looking for love in all the wrong places, looking for love in all the wrong faces"
The kingdom of God is within you. I think you are looking in the wrong places maybe, like the Urban Cowboy song goes "looking for love in all the wrong places, looking for love in all the wrong faces"
Aimiel
Well-known member
Dohhh...
Dohhh...
I pray that your discovery of Him is sooner, rather than later. I came to Him at an early age, ran away from Him really hard, found myself in a pit of bitterness and unforgiveness, and sought Him harder than I ever could have imagined a human could, about twenty years later. That was the hardest three-and-a-half years of my 'not so easy' life. It was not until He gave me repentance that I found Him. I sought within myself for the ability to repent and just could not find it. He had to give it to me. I remember the moment He did (about seven years ago) as if it were last night. I have promised myself to never turn from Him again. He is good to me, all the time. He cares for me more than I do. He feels the same way about you.
Dohhh...
God is all like... "Dohhh, why didn't I think of that?" :doh: "Next time I need something designed, I'm gonna' have Zakath do it!!!" Man, His ways are past finding out. His Plan of Salvation is offered to all. If we could see Him, He would be to busy to save everyone, what with signing autographs, TV appearances, book tours and all. He lives. We don't live forever without His Grace. With Him inside of us, we become a new creation, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. This Holy Spirit, who lives inside of me, is the Living Water that Jesus referred to, which allows us to be thirsty (wondering about whether we are worthwhile to Him or not) no more. Each time you say, "Show me proof of God," you are demonstrating that thirst. Your conscience gets the better of you, and you look for Him, even in your doubt. I believe that one day, just as soon as you admit to yourself, "OK, I know He exists, somewhere..." that is the instant you will find Him. I see you diligently seeking Him, alone in the dark, waiting for Him to speak first. Well, He has... it is called the Holy Bible. You don't find Him in there, that is just a book... but when you answer that knock at your heart's door, you will find that He has been standing there, patiently, all your life, waiting for you to open up to Him. What could it hurt? He is not evil, He does not have one bad thing in His Hand that He has to give to you. The only thing He has is freedom. Freedom from sin and guilt that He bought for you with the greatest price ever paid. If you ask Him, He will tell you, "Yes, Zakath, if I had it to do all over again, and you were the only one who believed in Me and the only one to accept My Sayings, I would die, just the same as I did for all." :thumb:
I pray that your discovery of Him is sooner, rather than later. I came to Him at an early age, ran away from Him really hard, found myself in a pit of bitterness and unforgiveness, and sought Him harder than I ever could have imagined a human could, about twenty years later. That was the hardest three-and-a-half years of my 'not so easy' life. It was not until He gave me repentance that I found Him. I sought within myself for the ability to repent and just could not find it. He had to give it to me. I remember the moment He did (about seven years ago) as if it were last night. I have promised myself to never turn from Him again. He is good to me, all the time. He cares for me more than I do. He feels the same way about you.