The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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One Eyed Jack
New member
You can't be serious. How old are you, Gerald?
I can't say for sure, without knowing the people that warned you. How about potential danger though?
Z Man
New member
If Jesus was not the Son of God, He would have never raised from the dead. If He had never raised from the dead, our world would not be the same. He really would be just a myth, or never even mentioned at all. At best, He'd be looked upon as a "lunatic".
Yeah, but thank God He was gracious enough to open my eyes so I could "see" the world betraying me. You're still being tricked...
Do you not have the internet? Whoa, what a concept! You should try looking up information on it sometimes. Technology is great these days, isn't?For example???
Since there are many, how about providing the names of a dozen, or even ten.
Without Him, then His followers would have never "left their imprint on history". The reason for the rise of Christianity is not because of the disciples; it is because of what Christ did on the cross and His resurrection. When those disheartend and dissapointed disciples witnessed their Savior alive once more, after seeing Him die on the cross, they were filled with unimaginable hope that what He said was absolute truth. This is why an imprint has been indented into our world's history...
Freak did a good job on this already.
You underestimate the power of God, my friend...But only if one believes what you termed the alleged "bologna". The problem, as I see it, is that no amount of faith changes reality. In reality, as I understand it, the deity of the Bible does not exist. No amount of faith will change that.
Pride? No. Pleasure in "sin"? No. I am in my present position due to lack of sufficient evidence provided by any relgionist to change my mind.
&
Something I've learned over the years: the fact that someone is convinced something is real is insufficient evidence for me to accept the reality of their belief without corraborating evidence from outside the indivdual's perspective.
&
...you expect me to base my relationship with your deity on a second hand report of an alleged vision of a dead person?
&
We've already discussed this, as well. You do not seem to be able to provide anything concrete, merely vague references to contemporary movies and "many other historical documents".
Hardly a convincing argument.
Zakath,
I already knew from the get-go, and I'll say it agian here: Quit looking for salvation in evidence, because evidence can not and will not save you. Only faith from God can grant that.
Besides, you won't believe anything that is brought before you that has anything to do with God, because in your mind He does not exist. You don't won't Him too because if He did, that would mean you've been living a lie this whole time. It would also make your claims and hard work to disprove His existence look stupid, and you can't handle that kind of "ego" change. You are afraid of something Zak, and that something is yourself...
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Z Man dodges questions again:
You wrote there were "many other historical documents that state an declare Jesus' existence". Yet when asked to produce examples, you refused.
Could it be because the alleged documents only exist in your fertile imagination?
If that is not the case, back up your assertion.
Provide us with citations for one dozen out of the "many" documents. We'll examine them publicly to determine how valuable they are to your case.
You made the claim. If you cannot produce them, all I'm left to assume is that you were mistaken or you lied.
I have yet to be apprised of one historically verifiable event attributable to Jesus of Nazareth.
I think it is more correct to say that I will not accept weak, easily falsifiable or ambiguous evidence. You Christians do not seem to have anything else to present...
What is the issue is that, once again, when asked to present clear, unambiguous, empircal evidence for the existence of the ultimate cause of the universe, the most powerful being in all existence, a being which allegedly speaks to hearts of all mankind, not a single one of you has been able to deliver.
The atheists are still waiting... :crackup:
You wrote there were "many other historical documents that state an declare Jesus' existence". Yet when asked to produce examples, you refused.
Could it be because the alleged documents only exist in your fertile imagination?
If that is not the case, back up your assertion.
Provide us with citations for one dozen out of the "many" documents. We'll examine them publicly to determine how valuable they are to your case.
You made the claim. If you cannot produce them, all I'm left to assume is that you were mistaken or you lied.
Weak argument. Using the same logic we could justify the existence of any of the deities claimed by the world religions, including Hinduism and Islam. The followers of these religions left significant imprints on history as well.
The point is that all the historical evidence speaks to the activities of Jesus' followers, not his own activities. Jesus never led a country, captained a military force, or even is recorded as leading a religious service. Yet an insititution has grown up fueled by the belief and activities of his followers that has set up and shaken down nations, economies and philosophies, started and executed bloody wars, built hospitals and orphanages, and many other historically verifiable events.
I have yet to be apprised of one historically verifiable event attributable to Jesus of Nazareth.
But I'm interested in your comments, not Jay Bartlett's. Or is this another case where you cannot answer?
I have seen nothing yet to indicate that.
If you truly believe that evidence is worthless, then why do you engage in apologetics arguments with atheists?
Well, it seems you've learned something from this exchange!
I think it is more correct to say that I will not accept weak, easily falsifiable or ambiguous evidence. You Christians do not seem to have anything else to present...
What I'm afraid of (or not) is not the issue here.
What is the issue is that, once again, when asked to present clear, unambiguous, empircal evidence for the existence of the ultimate cause of the universe, the most powerful being in all existence, a being which allegedly speaks to hearts of all mankind, not a single one of you has been able to deliver.
The atheists are still waiting... :crackup:
Let's get serious. I can't provide you with anything that you would call "compelling reason". My assertions and your denials are well represented here and on thousands of other web sites.
There are, however, a whole universe of experiences that you have absolutely NO power or authority to deny. Here are just a few examples of mine:
1. I enjoyed "The Two Towers"
2. I woke up well rested and refreshed this morning
3. I had a good cup of coffee
4. I experienced a great time of prayer
5. God is at work in my life
You have free will. Use it wisely.
Gerald
Resident Fiend
Old enough to know better, but I do it anyway...
Seriously, though, I said that to illustrate that, AFAIAC, corporeal entities are far more worthy of concern than incorporeal entities.
Well, the one who gave me the most vehement warning claimed to be a sensitive; this was after I had dared the "evil presense" she said she felt nearby to manifest itself in a solid, visible form and show me how big, bad and eeeeevil it was.
My friend the sensitive almost wet herself when I did that.
Our merry band of spook-hunters broke up not long after that, and she admonished me to not be surprised when I wake up one dark night and find "cold, invisible fingers" closing around my throat.
That was more than 20 years ago; no "cold, invisible fingers" yet...
Zakath
For me to adopt your position of hopeless scepticism about God and all that He offer would be entirely dishonest. It would be like being married but stating to myself and others that actually I was still single. Jesus Christ is the indestructible partner of my existence whom I can never deny with integrity.
1) I am convinced by the quality and evident truth of the Bible manuscripts themselves and because having accepted God into my life His presence is too obvious to ignore in the scriptures also. Its like having a favourite smell. When you smell it you light up. When I read scripture I smell God! No doubt you will attempt to ridicule the wording of that but that is the way it seems sometimes.
2) There is a considerable amount in the Antiquities of the Jews which affirms the Bible accounts and characters contained in them e.g. James, Pilate, Herod etc. Since these references are extremely numerous I will not bother to quote them all just recommend that you read the book.
3) The Testimonium Flavianum debate is far from being the onesided discussion that you paint it to be:
I take it your Arabic quotation is drawn from Pines 1971 work on the subject as your translation is similar to his. (see S.Pines - An Arabic version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications.)
JOSEPHUS:
"Testimonium Flavianum" (Josephus - Jewish Antiquities- Book 18 - Chapter 3 ( 63-64).
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the ) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day."
versus
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders."
There was a considerable debate particularly concerning the Slavonic versions of the Testimonium Flavianum in the C19 and many scholars concluded that these texts especially, may have been heavily edited. Also Origen mentioned that Jospehus probably did not believe in Jesus as the messiah. My own view is that there is a hard core of testimony here worth accepting as Josephus and that may have been some Christian editing of some versions. However even if I accepted the minimalist levels of the Arabic version I would still have here a testimony about the historical existence of Christ from a non Christian source , the fact that it was claimed he was the messiah and also that he performed paranormal acts.
4) Your materialist/ reductionist approach to the serious theological questions I posed about origins and destiny and identity for instance reflect your own biases and the ways in which you choose to answer them from the narrow sphere of your own experience without reference to a truly authoritative source.
5)
There is a debate about this reference and Christians regard it as you do as a very distorted reference on the Biblical account. Yet many believe unlike you that it refers to Christ even though its interpretations of his miracles differ from orthodox Christian belief. Jesus here is called the Son of Pandera (As Origen explains in (Contra Celsum 1:32) this was because Jews considered him the child of a Roman soldier by that name. Indeed the reference itself could be regarded as a corruption of the Greek word "parthenos" for virgin and thus the passage provides indirect testimony (albeit corrupted) of the Virgin Birth claims made by Scripture.
6) Try also -
i) View Jesus was a sorceror who learnt black arts in Egypt - Sanhedrin 43b.
ii) Jew Trypo makes same charge ( Justin Dialogues Tryph 69.7)
iii) Greek Celsus also says the same(Origen Contra Celsum 1.6)
iv) Also evidence that Jesus name was used in exorcism rites outside the Christian community:
(see Magical papyri - PGM IV. 3019-3020)
v) Evidence that Jesus was considered a powerful healer:
t.hul 2:22-23; y.Sabb. 14.4.14d; y.'Abod. Zar. 2:2.40d-41a; b.'Abod.Zar.27b)
vi) Julius Africanus quotes first century Greek author Thallus saying that a darkness occurred at the time of the crucifixion.
7) All creation testifies to the existence of an Almighty, Wise and creatively artistic God.
For me to adopt your position of hopeless scepticism about God and all that He offer would be entirely dishonest. It would be like being married but stating to myself and others that actually I was still single. Jesus Christ is the indestructible partner of my existence whom I can never deny with integrity.
1) I am convinced by the quality and evident truth of the Bible manuscripts themselves and because having accepted God into my life His presence is too obvious to ignore in the scriptures also. Its like having a favourite smell. When you smell it you light up. When I read scripture I smell God! No doubt you will attempt to ridicule the wording of that but that is the way it seems sometimes.
2) There is a considerable amount in the Antiquities of the Jews which affirms the Bible accounts and characters contained in them e.g. James, Pilate, Herod etc. Since these references are extremely numerous I will not bother to quote them all just recommend that you read the book.
3) The Testimonium Flavianum debate is far from being the onesided discussion that you paint it to be:
I take it your Arabic quotation is drawn from Pines 1971 work on the subject as your translation is similar to his. (see S.Pines - An Arabic version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications.)
JOSEPHUS:
"Testimonium Flavianum" (Josephus - Jewish Antiquities- Book 18 - Chapter 3 ( 63-64).
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the ) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day."
versus
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders."
There was a considerable debate particularly concerning the Slavonic versions of the Testimonium Flavianum in the C19 and many scholars concluded that these texts especially, may have been heavily edited. Also Origen mentioned that Jospehus probably did not believe in Jesus as the messiah. My own view is that there is a hard core of testimony here worth accepting as Josephus and that may have been some Christian editing of some versions. However even if I accepted the minimalist levels of the Arabic version I would still have here a testimony about the historical existence of Christ from a non Christian source , the fact that it was claimed he was the messiah and also that he performed paranormal acts.
4) Your materialist/ reductionist approach to the serious theological questions I posed about origins and destiny and identity for instance reflect your own biases and the ways in which you choose to answer them from the narrow sphere of your own experience without reference to a truly authoritative source.
5)
There is a debate about this reference and Christians regard it as you do as a very distorted reference on the Biblical account. Yet many believe unlike you that it refers to Christ even though its interpretations of his miracles differ from orthodox Christian belief. Jesus here is called the Son of Pandera (As Origen explains in (Contra Celsum 1:32) this was because Jews considered him the child of a Roman soldier by that name. Indeed the reference itself could be regarded as a corruption of the Greek word "parthenos" for virgin and thus the passage provides indirect testimony (albeit corrupted) of the Virgin Birth claims made by Scripture.
6) Try also -
i) View Jesus was a sorceror who learnt black arts in Egypt - Sanhedrin 43b.
ii) Jew Trypo makes same charge ( Justin Dialogues Tryph 69.7)
iii) Greek Celsus also says the same(Origen Contra Celsum 1.6)
iv) Also evidence that Jesus name was used in exorcism rites outside the Christian community:
(see Magical papyri - PGM IV. 3019-3020)
v) Evidence that Jesus was considered a powerful healer:
t.hul 2:22-23; y.Sabb. 14.4.14d; y.'Abod. Zar. 2:2.40d-41a; b.'Abod.Zar.27b)
vi) Julius Africanus quotes first century Greek author Thallus saying that a darkness occurred at the time of the crucifixion.
7) All creation testifies to the existence of an Almighty, Wise and creatively artistic God.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It is also interesting to note that this occurred on Passover, which by tradition occurs on the day of a full moon, hence a solar eclipse would have been impossible, since the moon was on the opposite side of the earth from the sun; and the darkness happened at mid-day.
One Eyed Jack
New member
Originally posted by Gerald
Old enough to know better, but I do it anyway...
Seriously, though, I said that to illustrate that, AFAIAC, corporeal entities are far more worthy of concern than incorporeal entities.
So you didn't actually use a 'double-dog dare?'
So that would make you what, about 30 or so?