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The earth is flat and we never went to the moon
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You were posting scripture before without the large text formatting.
Go back to using the scripture software you were using before.
Not really.
Unfortunately, though thankfully few and far in-between, and I imagine that there's a correlation (if not causation) between belief in either FE or GeoC and level of education.
You really think hindu cosmology (for example) should be debated on TOL?
It's not, really. It's fairly modern.
If I recall correctly (and correct me if I'm wrong), the model you like the most has the earth as a flat plane that extends to infinity. That doesn't fit this verse:
He sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, he stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out, as a tent to dwell in. - Isaiah 40:22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah40:22&version=GNV
Even if it is correctly translated as "circle," because a plane that extends infinitely cannot, by definition, be a circle.
Most don't, afaik.
Kepler and Galileo have nothing to do with NASA. They established that heliocentrism matches what we see going on in the night sky.
Honestly, I'm glad we've had a discussion on this topic, and I've certainly learned a lot, but would I say my position has changed? Not at all. If anything, my position, that God created the heavens, the earth, the seas, and all that is within them, and that he hung the earth on nothing, that He sits over the sphere of the earth, and stretched out the heavens, has been solidified.
Fine with me. Can we keep it as "The earth is flat and we never went to the moon"?
--Dave
That's the whole point of a debate, both sides make their case and others can add to it. Everyone involved becomes more informed and can make up their own mind on the matter.
Flat earth is the oldest cosmology
"The flat Earth model is an archaic conception of Earth's shape as a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures subscribed to a flat Earth cosmography, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD), and China until the 17th century. That paradigm was also typically held in the aboriginal cultures of the Americas, and the notion of a flat Earth domed by the firmament in the shape of an inverted bowl...The idea of a spherical Earth appeared in Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most pre-Socratics (6th–5th century BC) retained the flat Earth model."
--Dave
Right Divider
Body part
Add another fallacy to your list of arguments. Something is not true simply because it is old.
I have been using BibleGateway under KJV for a while now but didn't know it has built in fonts. From what I'm being told I can prevent that and bolding too. So I may still be able to use biblegateway and fix it before I post and the the bold too. But how can I tell for sure if it's ok after I post? So I can either delete the post or try again? AMR or anybody that can help, I appreciate it. I used to type them out in the past but never very many verses. I used to always look them up in my KJV and type after reading from the book. It takes so much time though. I won't enlarge anything anymore.
I'm looking now after right clicking on this highlighted text and everything is available to click EXCEPT "PASTE AS PLAIN TEXT" - that option is light gray and unclickable. :idunno:
When someone on one side or the other refuses to be persuaded NO MATTER WHAT, then it ceases to be a debate and becomes something else, something ugly, uncouth, unrighteousness and unchristian. Christianity ought not be about the pursuit of doctrine for doctrine's sake but about the pursuit of truth no matter the consequences and as such ought to restrict itself to rational discourse and remain open to being persuaded by it. There are those on this thread, and I'm literally frightened that you may be one of them, who would not be persuaded that the Earth was round if someone physically took them into orbit and showed it to them. At the very least they wouldn't be convinced by anything less than exactly that which is not a reasonable burden of proof by any standard. It's as if the flat-earthers don't bother to even think through the arguments against their position. They listen to and accept only that which argues in the affirmative and basically ignore everything else, answering any rebuttals not with rejoinders but with entirely different affirmative arguments.
As for your last post, the fallacy there is known as an appeal to tradition and/or an appeal to popularity - take your pick. The point is that how old an idea is or how many people believed it isn't at all relevant to whether it is true. A lot of people can be wrong for a very long period of time.
Clete
I never said flat earth is "correct" because it's the oldest, I just said it was the oldest. Then came geocentrism around 300 BC then heliocentrism in the 1500s. A form of heliocentrism is offered at 300 BC but was rejected for geocentrism.
Aristotle believed that ships disappearing bottom first was proof of a globe but rejected a spinning and orbiting globe. There was no evidence for movement then just as now "from earth".
Clete, you and I have argued against a timeless God and we both think it an absurd, unbiblical, irrational concept but there are those we have argued with who refuse to see what we consider clear truth. But there are many more open view believers now because of our arguments. You nor I think badly about those who are unconvinced of our arguments nor do we think that our opponents are destroying Christianity and sending the naive into eternal hell for believing in a timeless deity. Regardless of how convinced you are of the Copernican universe I hope you won't treat those who are not so convinced any differently than you would those who are not convinced of open view.
Just remove all "personal" concerns about this topic and put out all those good arguments you're capable of and see how it goes. I will continue to defend and argue for flat earth and also see how it goes. I'm not doing this for any "personal" reasons. The only thing I'm personally interesting in is studying all the cosmologies and comparing them, and enjoying the process. It's important for me to find the truth. My complete past confidence in Copernican cosmology has been seriously challenged by flat earth. I never had confidence in the moon missions because I believe they were faked for political purposes. NASA is in my opinion has always been a disguised "space" military organization--Army/land, Navy/sea, Air Force/sky, NASA/space.
--Dave
Flat earth is not a doctrine and it does not have anything to to with salvation. My blessed assurance is intact and my doctrine hasn't changed. I have testimonies on video (short ones) from Christians whose faith was strengthened and unbelievers who now believe in God and Jesus Christ as their Saviour, Personally, I don't know anyone that has experienced the same as me or was an unbeliever and changed or not. I can only believe the written testimonies that I've heard. I may post one short testimony video just to put it out there. The debate is contentious, IMO, partly because flat earthers believe that ALL the evidence presented for a globe does not rise to the level of proof to us.
Amos 9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
God’s Judgment Unavoidable
9 I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and He said,
“Smite the capitals so that the thresholds will shake,
And break them on the heads of them all!
Then I will slay the rest of them with the sword;
They will not have a fugitive who will flee,
Or a refugee who will escape.
2 “Though they dig into Sheol,
From there will My hand take them;
And though they ascend to heaven,
From there will I bring them down.
3 “Though they hide on the summit of Carmel,
I will search them out and take them from there;
And though they conceal themselves from My sight on the floor of the sea,
From there I will command the serpent and it will bite them.
4 “And though they go into captivity before their enemies,
From there I will command the sword that it slay them,
And I will set My eyes against them for evil and not for good.”
5 The Lord [a]God of hosts,
The One who touches the land so that it melts,
And all those who dwell in it mourn,
And all of it rises up like the Nile
And subsides like the Nile of Egypt;
6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens
And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth,
He who calls for the waters of the sea
And pours them out on the face of the earth,
The Lord is His name.
7 “Are you not as the sons of Ethiopia to Me,
O sons of Israel?” declares the Lord.
“Have I not brought up Israel from the land of Egypt,
And the Philistines from Caphtor and the Arameans from Kir?
8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,”
Declares the Lord.
9 “For behold, I am commanding,
And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations
As grain is shaken in a sieve,
But not a [c]kernel will fall to the ground.
10 “All the sinners of My people will die by the sword,
Those who say, ‘The calamity will not overtake or confront us.’
The Restoration of Israel
11 “In that day I will raise up the fallen [d]booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the [e]nations who are called by My name,”
Declares the Lord who does this.
13 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When the plowman will overtake the reaper
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
When the mountains will drip sweet wine
And all the hills will be dissolved.
14 “Also I will restore the [f]captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.
Footnotes:
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
God’s Judgment Unavoidable
9 I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and He said,
“Smite the capitals so that the thresholds will shake,
And break them on the heads of them all!
Then I will slay the rest of them with the sword;
They will not have a fugitive who will flee,
Or a refugee who will escape.
2 “Though they dig into Sheol,
From there will My hand take them;
And though they ascend to heaven,
From there will I bring them down.
3 “Though they hide on the summit of Carmel,
I will search them out and take them from there;
And though they conceal themselves from My sight on the floor of the sea,
From there I will command the serpent and it will bite them.
4 “And though they go into captivity before their enemies,
From there I will command the sword that it slay them,
And I will set My eyes against them for evil and not for good.”
5 The Lord [a]God of hosts,
The One who touches the land so that it melts,
And all those who dwell in it mourn,
And all of it rises up like the Nile
And subsides like the Nile of Egypt;
6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens
And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth,
He who calls for the waters of the sea
And pours them out on the face of the earth,
The Lord is His name.
7 “Are you not as the sons of Ethiopia to Me,
O sons of Israel?” declares the Lord.
“Have I not brought up Israel from the land of Egypt,
And the Philistines from Caphtor and the Arameans from Kir?
8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,”
Declares the Lord.
9 “For behold, I am commanding,
And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations
As grain is shaken in a sieve,
But not a [c]kernel will fall to the ground.
10 “All the sinners of My people will die by the sword,
Those who say, ‘The calamity will not overtake or confront us.’
The Restoration of Israel
11 “In that day I will raise up the fallen [d]booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the [e]nations who are called by My name,”
Declares the Lord who does this.
13 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When the plowman will overtake the reaper
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
When the mountains will drip sweet wine
And all the hills will be dissolved.
14 “Also I will restore the [f]captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.
Footnotes:
- Amos 9:5 Heb YHWH, usually rendered Lord, and so throughout the ch
- Amos 9:6 Or stairs
- Amos 9:9 Or pebble
- Amos 9:11 Or shelter or tabernacle
- Amos 9:12 Or Gentiles
- Amos 9:14 Or fortunes
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
I didn't mean to space that long post so much. I can't edit.
I find it interesting that to support your beliefs you have to use a translation of the Bible that doesn't closely match the Hebrew.
He who builds His layers in the sky, And has founded His strata in the earth; Who calls for the waters of the sea, And pours them out on the face of the earth— The Lord is His name. - Amos 9:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Amos9:6&version=NKJV
H4609
From anywhere on a spherical earth, the atmosphere is a dome arching overhead. No point for you there.
As for the second half, spheres have a single face as well, geometrically speaking, so no point for you there either.
I'd say definitely, it sums the topic up beautifully. Because we can show many major flaws in the whole moon landing charade, and that means NASA will lie about anything and everything. I have this entire interview on video with and without expert behavioral analysis. It's very telling, plus the raw footage of the paper in the window nobody was supposed to see and the artificial light thy used was seen also, among a litany of debacles that virtually prove they never went to the moon. These images explain a lot. Not to mention the effort to nuke the dome above the earth during Operation Fish Bowl and all the many operations with Admiral Byrd at the helm. Look into Operations High Jump and Deep Freeze for more details.
[h=1]Flat Earth Testimonies: "Autumn"...[/h]
15 minutes
[video]Flat Earth Testimonies: "Autumn"...[/video]
15 minutes
[video]Flat Earth Testimonies: "Autumn"...[/video]
The implication is clear. There is no other reason for you to have brought it up.
See what I mean? What other possible reason could there have been for bringing it up.
There is plenty of evidence of movement. Go outside and watch the Sun rise tomorrow morning. It's proof that we are moving relative to the Sun. The fact that you don't feel the movement isn't proof that the Earth is stationary. If the Earth is in motion around the Sun, the fact that you can't feel the change in direction as it makes it's turn in a circle around the Sun means that the turn must be gentle enough to be below the threshold of our ability to detect it with our normal senses. This in turn implies a very vast distance being traveled around the Sun.
Lucky for for us globists, that just so happens to be the case.
The difference is that there are no reasonable arguments for a flat Earth, Dave. It's a delusional conspiracy theory with no basis in reality whatsoever.
Further, religious beliefs are very often not affected at all by rational arguments. They ought to be but its understandable why they often aren't. Religious beliefs are very personal and have deep emotional ties that speak to things like family and the very meaning of one's life.
The shape of the Earth is an objective fact of reality. The Earth is either a globe or is isn't. There is no religious aspect to the issue whatsoever. Some idiotic Christians attempt to make it a religious issue and that's when you know that they are out of reach and that they are doing something other than debating the shape of the Earth.
Further, not being convinced is one thing but being stupid is quite another as is being hostile to the truth. Nang, for example, doesn't just reject the Open View because she feels that our case hasn't been proved. Oh no! On the contrary. She is not even half as honest at that would imply. I, for one, do not consider her to be saved at all and treat her as the enemy of the gospel that she is. She believes a different gospel, worships a different God and places her trust in the wrong Jesus. She's no more saved than a Scientologist or Mormon and I do not treat her with the sort of deference that I am inclined to treat you with. I get extremely frustrated and even angry when you waste my time but then I get over it. The point being that not only do I often think very badly of some who are not convinced about Open Theism but in addition to that, this is not a religious issue and has no bearing on your relationship with God and so your parallelism doesn't quite work on more than one front.
I did that!
I did exactly that and what I got was one non-responsive post after another. You'd post a video with a billion different arguments and I'd refute them and so in response you found another video to post with a gazillion arguments. I'd refute those and then you'd post yet another video. And the wheels on the bus go round and round until Clete loses the last of his marbles! I argued until I was blue in the face and it didn't move you one inch - not one single inch. What makes that particularly bad is that many of the arguments I made weren't merely arguments, they were proof. Proof sufficient to convince anyone who was being objective and intellectually honest.
Like I said, a delusional conspiracy theory. There's exactly the same amount of evidence that aliens visited the ancient Earth as there is that the Moon landings were faked - NONE!
The idea that the Moon landings were faked has been so thoroughly debunked so many times by so many different people in every medium imaginable - books, movies, t.v. shows, power point presentations and of course YouTube videos. People who aren't convinced don't want to be convinced.
As an example, no one denies that NASA has military missions and that the technology they produce has military applications. The Moon missions were geopolitical from the very beginning. Starting with a speech given by President Kennedy. Most of the rockets that NASA has used are just modified versions of the same rockets the military uses to deliver intercontinental ballistic missiles. Everyone knows it and NASA doesn't deny it. There's no need to cover up what everyone knows and that no one denies, Dave! That single point alone should be sufficient to convince anyone that the conspiracy theory is silliness. The idea that the tens of thousands of civilian employees of NASA (here in Houston alone) could maintain such a wide ranging and complex conspiracy is ludicrous by itself; the fact that there is no motive to do so strains credulity far beyond the breaking point.
Clete
It's not just that you have the burden of proof for a globe set too high but that you have effectively no bar set at all set for the veracity of affirmative arguments for a flat Earth. Flat Earthers present the most asinine, juvenile and irrational arguments that I've ever seen presented in favor of anything. And I really mean that. There really are embarrassingly bad arguments that you guys present as if they're convincing and then there are really outstandingly brilliant proofs that the Earth is a globe that don't make any more of a dent than would shooting spit balls at a battleship.
It's those two things added together that makes this issue so infuriating to discuss.
On another Forum :
[h=2]Do you think enclosed flat earth is possible from scripture, or think it's IMPOSSIBLE?[/h]Edit
[FONT="]This poll will close on Feb 29, 2028 at 9:30 PM.[/FONT]
[h=2]Do you think enclosed flat earth is possible from scripture, or think it's IMPOSSIBLE?[/h]Edit
[FONT="]This poll will close on Feb 29, 2028 at 9:30 PM.[/FONT]
- *[h=3]Possible[/h]
5 vote(s)
50.0% - [h=3]IMPOSSIBLE[/h]
5 vote(s)
50.0%
[FONT="][/FONT]
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