The earth is flat and we never went to the moon

[Right Divider]

Then explain where heaven and hell are?

--Dave

One is UP and the other is DOWN.

 

[Clete]

Dave,

Seriously now. I want for you to watch this short video. (The other one I posted if very long and boring but full of good information.)

It's just a few minutes long so I want you to watch it. I don't expect it to convince you of anything. I want you to watch it because I want you to see and hear what a rational person sounds like who happens to be calling into question modern scientific cosmological dogma. Just listen and see if you don't just intuitively get the fact that these people, right or wrong, are not lunatics but are serious, intelligent, scientifically minded people who take what they are saying seriously and want for you to do the same. These are not tin foil hat, conspiracy theorist, quacks or con artist, posting things on YouTube for laughs. This is what it sounds like when adults try to find better answers than modern establishment science offers.

Pay close attention to the quote of C.S. Lewis. It has direct berring on the specific debate accuring in this thread....

 

[Clete]

David,

You've gotta stop with the biblical arguments. At best you're making interpretive arguments anyway which by their very nature do not prove anything.

But more important than that is the fact that the Earth IS NOT FLAT and everyone knows it. You're effectively arguing against the veracity of the Bible and therefore of Christianity. A point that I can guarantee you is not lost on any intelligent atheist.

Clete

 

[DFT_Dave]

Limited, yes but unreliable?

The thrust of such an objection is to undermine reason itself. No scientifically minded person would make such an unqualified objection. Instead, they would acknowledge the limitations of our senses and insist that experimental results be confirmed independently.

Everything you said in this last sentence past the word 'anything' should have been left out of the sentence.

It's based on every fallacy you can name! Hasty Generalization Fallacy, Circular Reasoning Fallacy, Question Begging Fallacy, Red Herring Fallacy, Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, Appeal to Authority Fallacy, Affirming the Consequent Fallacy and probably half a dozen more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

Here's the thing you HAVE to remember about comparing what you see with one cosmology or another. You have to look for falsifying evidence. In other words, you have to guard against confirmation bias. You cannot say, "The Earth seems flat to me, therefore the Earth is flat." that doesn't work because your inability to see or feel the curvature of the Earth does not prove that it doesn't exist. The thing you have to remember is that nothing you see, nothing that you would call empirical evidence, contradicts the globe Earth model -quite the contrary, in fact. Anything that you think does contradict it, is an example of a hasty generalization or affirming the consequent fallacy. In fact, I think I can say with some confidence that this thread is the greatest example of sloppy thinking that this site has yet produced. It is certainly your magnum opus of irrational thought. I'm not saying that to be insulting, I'm just calling it the way I see it. I wouldn't have thought you capable of such irrationality.

Clete

I am capable of believing either flat or globe earth without bias. I have nothing to lose and nothing to gain. That you would accuse me with every fallacy and threaten me with concern for my reputation with seeming emotional responses tells me you are very biased and unable to deal with this subject in a neutral objective manner. You are taking this personal and you are justified for doing so and I understand why.

I obviously genuinely believe that there are flat earth arguments that challenge me and my preconceived notions about our world. That does not mean flat earth is true but it means to me that I must push this until my own mind is satisfied one way or the other.

You and Knight have always been friend and regardless of the outcome of my pursuit I will not think any less of either of you. I hope that both of you will not think any less of me.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

One is UP and the other is DOWN.

Where is up and down "to God" on globe earth?

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

Where is up and down "to God" on globe earth?

--Dave

The same as it is for the rest of us Dave.

God often uses language that WE can relate to with respect to the form of His creation.

Matt 5:45 (KJV)​

(5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
​

See Dave.... sun rise is a phenomenon specifically connected to a GLOBAL earth.

It makes NO sense to a flat earth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Scripture, this one included favor flat earth.

A location for heaven and hell are clearly reasons why.

Now tell me where heaven and hell are.

--Dave

That does not at all answer my questions Dave. First question, A or B? Second question, A or B?

You still have not answered my questions, Dave. Please answer them:

First of all, which model (using the verse below) describes God's majesty as greater, the flat earth model, where everything above the earth is just an image/hologram, or the model that the earth is a globe spinning in space, orbiting a star which is orbiting around the center of a galaxy?
A) Flat Earth model
B) Globe Earth model

Thus says the Lord: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist," Says the Lord. "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word." - Isaiah 66:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah66:1-2&version=NKJV

Second, using the verses above, which model of the universe fits the statement that "all those things exist", the flat earth model, or the globe earth model?
A) Flat Earth model
B) Globe Earth model

Read the verse I quoted, Dave, and answer A or B for both questions.

Then, and ONLY THEN, will I answer your question.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave,

Seriously now. I want for you to watch this short video. (The other one I posted if very long and boring but full of good information.)

It's just a few minutes long so I want you to watch it. I don't expect it to convince you of anything. I want you to watch it because I want you to see and hear what a rational person sounds like who happens to be calling into question modern scientific cosmological dogma. Just listen and see if you don't just intuitively get the fact that these people, right or wrong, are not lunatics but are serious, intelligent, scientifically minded people who take what they are saying seriously and want for you to do the same. These are not tin foil hat, conspiracy theorist, quacks or con artist, posting things on YouTube for laughs. This is what it sounds like when adults try to find better answers than modern establishment science offers.

Pay close attention to the quote of C.S. Lewis. It has direct berring on the specific debate accuring in this thread....

I will watch it.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

David,

You've gotta stop with the biblical arguments. At best you're making interpretive arguments anyway which by their very nature do not prove anything.

But more important than that is the fact that the Earth IS NOT FLAT and everyone knows it. You're effectively arguing against the veracity of the Bible and therefore of Christianity. A point that I can guarantee you is not lost on any intelligent atheist.

Clete

Others have asked me about the Biblical perspective and I will address it.

Flat earth does not help atheism, but I really don't concern myself with what they think about anything.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

The same as it is for the rest of us Dave.

God often uses language that WE can relate to with respect to the form of His creation.

Matt 5:45 (KJV)​

(5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
​

See Dave.... sun rise is a phenomenon specifically connected to a GLOBAL earth.

It makes NO sense to a flat earth.

The sun rising also means the sun is moving not the earth.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

That does not at all answer my questions Dave. First question, A or B? Second question, A or B?

Read the verse I quoted, Dave, and answer A or B for both questions.

Then, and ONLY THEN, will I answer your question.

I did, flat earth.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

The sun rising also means the sun is moving not the earth.

--Dave

Get a clue Dave. It's called phenomenological language.

The sun APPEARS to rise because we RIDE on the rotating GLOBE.

When this thread started, I had a lot of respect for you. But with every post you just say dumber and dumber things.

Your "perspective sunset" simply doesn't work and you should know that by now. Get a grip on reality.

 

[Greg Jennings]

David,

You've gotta stop with the biblical arguments. At best you're making interpretive arguments anyway which by their very nature do not prove anything.

But more important than that is the fact that the Earth IS NOT FLAT and everyone knows it. You're effectively arguing against the veracity of the Bible and therefore of Christianity. A point that I can guarantee you is not lost on any intelligent atheist.

Clete

Very good!

Now, if only you guys could see that arguing the Earth is 6000 years old undermines Christianity in the exact same way, then we'd really be making progress

 

[JudgeRightly]

Very good!

Now, if only you guys could see that arguing the Earth is 6000 years old undermines Christianity in the exact same way, then we'd really be making progress

No, the only thing that would truly undermine Christianity is if Christ did not rise from the grave. If He did not, then all Christians are fools.

But if He did, then the entire Bible is true, and those who do not repent of their sins are in big trouble.

Christ affirmed what Moses wrote, and Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, and that includes genesis.

Christ said that "FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION God made them male and female."

Now, I don't know about you, but if Christ rose from the dead (and I challenge you to explain why the evidence for His resurrection is lacking or insufficient), then I would take Him at His word when He says that God made Adam and Eve at the beginning of creation, and not over millions or billions of years. Day 6 is at the beginning.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Get a clue Dave. It's called phenomenological language.

The sun APPEARS to rise because we RIDE on the rotating GLOBE.

When this thread started, I had a lot of respect for you. But with every post you just say dumber and dumber things.

Your "perspective sunset" simply doesn't work and you should know that by now. Get a grip on reality.

Then it could also mean that the sun does not really rise or set.

Saying the sun sets and rises is not proof for either model.

I don't care about having your respect.

--Dave

 

[Clete]

I am capable of believing either flat or globe earth without bias. I have nothing to lose and nothing to gain. That you would accuse me with every fallacy and threaten me with concern for my reputation with seeming emotional responses tells me you are very biased and unable to deal with this subject in a neutral objective manner. You are taking this personal and you are justified for doing so and I understand why.

You're projecting, Dave. You forget somehow that this entire discussion is still here for everyone to read. I've spent the last several months making actual arguments and BEGGING you to do the same.

I obviously genuinely believe that there are flat earth arguments that challenge me and my preconceived notions about our world. That does not mean flat earth is true but it means to me that I must push this until my own mind is satisfied one way or the other.

The problem here is that every so called argument you've presented has beendirectly refuted, almost universally without substantive response from you. This discussion has proceeded almost exactly like nearly every "debate" I've ever had with a Calvinist. They do not care what the rebuttal are and neither it seems do you.

You and Knight have always been friend and regardless of the outcome of my pursuit I will not think any less of either of you. I hope that both of you will not think any less of me.

--Dave

I think of people on the basis of their character. If you're intellectually honest, I'll think of you as such. And no, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me, it means you have to engage the argument, which up til now, you have not done with any substance. Saying you're not convinced isn't nearly good enough. Not with what has been presented on this thread. You must explain why you're not convinced, which I do not believe you're capable of doing outside of forcing everyone here to simply repeat themselves. That is, you cannot do so while offering rejoinders to the rebuttals that have been presented. At best, you'll simply repeat the same stupidity that has already been repeatedly refuted, just like the Calvinsts do.


Clete

 

[Clete]

Others have asked me about the Biblical perspective and I will address it.

Flat earth does not help atheism, but I really don't concern myself with what they think about anything.

--Dave

That isn't true. Of course, you concern yourself with what they think. Otherwise, you wouldn't bother with street evangelism (or any other sort of evangelism for that matter).

It matters David and you know it.

The fact that everyone in the room knows, including yourself, is that the world is not flat. You presenting interpretive arguments of passages of scripture as though the Bible overtly asserts that the world is flat is a prima facia argument that the Bible teaches falsehoods!

If you don't think that matters, you'd better think again.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Very good!

Now, if only you guys could see that arguing the Earth is 6000 years old undermines Christianity in the exact same way, then we'd really be making progress

Except that there are real rational arguments that can be made in support of that contention that neither you nor anyone else can answer.


Don't attempt to highjack the thread on this topic. If you want to debate the age of the Earth, start another thread.

 

[Right Divider]

Then it could also mean that the sun does not really rise or set.

Saying the sun sets and rises is not proof for either model.

I don't care about having your respect.

--Dave

You don't care about having anyone's respect. That's why you say so many crazy and ridiculous things.

The way that we observe sun rise and sun set is explicable in the flat earth model.

The way that we observe sun rise and sun set is easily explained by the spherical model.

One FAILS (flat earth) one SUCCEEDS (spherical earth).

But Dave clings to a FAILURE.

 

[Greg Jennings]

No, the only thing that would truly undermine Christianity is if Christ did not rise from the grave. If He did not, then all Christians are fools.

But if He did, then the entire Bible is true, and those who do not repent of their sins are in big trouble.

That seems fair

Christ affirmed what Moses wrote, and Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, and that includes genesis.

Most scholars find Moses writing the whole thing somewhere between unlikely and impossible. But he did almost certainly pen a bunch of it

Christ said that "FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION God made them male and female."

A person is born with both a penis and a vagina. Which are they? Man or woman?

Now, I don't know about you, but if Christ rose from the dead (and I challenge you to explain why the evidence for His resurrection is lacking or insufficient),

It is lacking. We certainly don't have proof. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But there is hardly any smoking gun out there, unless you want to point me to one

then I would take Him at His word when He says that God made Adam and Eve at the beginning of creation, and not over millions or billions of years. Day 6 is at the beginning.

Then you either don't understand or (I think more likely) have never studied the Earth in detail. Go out in the field and see God's wonders yourself, and it will become apparent that He made them in far more than 6000 years, because most are the results of accumulations of events