Good point, that's the kind of thing that sticks in my mind and I look to see if flat earth has an answer for it.
--Dave
The earth is flat and we never went to the moon
- Thread starter DFT_Dave
- Start date
- Status
Good point, that's the kind of thing that sticks in my mind and I look to see if flat earth has an answer for it.
--Dave
Yeah because typically items that are spinning tend to speed up when they are traveling in a tighter diameter and slow down in a larger diameter. I guess they don't speed up per se but they make more revolutions because at the same speed they have less distance to travel.
The flat earth theory has the sun doing the opposite (over and over again, year after year, for no apparent reason).
Physics and reason don't seem to go together. Gravity just seems to be way to simplistic an answer as to why there is order and not chaos in a universe where every planet is spinning and moving through space.
--Dave
Right Divider
Body part
I'm really beginning to see what you your problem is Dave.
Just HOW, exactly, is "gravity too simplistic"?
Because it's not a discovery. Apples have always fallen from trees, nothing Newton didn't know before his big idea. All he did was imagine that apples fall for the same reason that planets stay in orbit and every thing does not fly off into space on a spinning planet. In short, why there is order and not chaos in the universe. It's an idea from his imagination, a thought experiment. The equation that he came up with is true only if his idea is correct, it proves nothing. Rather than say God holds everything together he imagines that God, or nature for an atheist, created a force that keeps everything together.
Saying a force, called gravity, exists is not proof as to why we don't float around in space or prove the existence of a universe of planets.
--Dave
Physics and reason do go together. But the result is not always intuitive.
You can have a proper conclusion but only if the premise is correct. Physics is not supposed to be faith based.
--Dave
Dave. Physics is not "faith based". Really really. Truly. Even without youtube videos. It is based on observation and experiments.
Relativity is not just something that "Einstein dreamed up". Nor is it dependent on Einsteins faith or lack of faith. It is a theory that explains real facts- experimental results, and has been tested in other experiments.
Quantum Mechanics is another example. It is completely non-intuitive. Yet it is how nature works. whether or not it "makes sense" in the simple sense. It was developed to explain experimental results- it is not based on any "faith".
If you spent a fraction of the time that you spend watching those videos on reading a decent book about Physics or the History of Physics, you could learn quite a lot.
:up:
Some arguments are just so transparently false and fraudulent that they really are a waste of time and even insulting.
I'm over it.
Why presuppose that it's about anything other than that some people see conspiracies behind every broken toaster and have no ability to think past their own nose?
This is why I disagree entirely with those that say that this thread has been a giant waste of time. No HONEST investigation of anything is a waste of time. I just caution you against assuming that there is some bigger reason why there is a tiny percentage of people who think the Earth is flat. There's a group of people who still believe that David Koresh was the second coming of Christ. There's a group of people who think the Earth is hollow and that there is a Sun inside the Earth.
View attachment 25499
No, that's what they say is the mechanism by which is self-illuminates but that isn't why they feel the need to say that it is self-illuminated. They'd be as pleased as punch to say that the Sun illuminates the Moon if doing so didn't cause them an insurmountable problem. It is precisely because of how right triangles work that they have to jettison the idea that the Moon is lit by the Sun. Once they've taken that step, however, then they have to explain how the Moon lights itself up. That's when they start talking about everything from electromagnetism to holograms to thin translucent discs to God knows what else. This, as you well know, is not a rational way of thinking. They have accepted the flat Earth model a priori and reject any premise that allows for its falsification. A complaint that many atheists make against Christians and in many cases they do so for good reason. But I know from having read probably every word on your website that you are not that sort of Christian. You actually want to have a rational worldview and to discipline your mind to stay within the confines of rational thought. I submit to you then that the flat-earther's tendency toward such irrationality, (including cherry picking evidence, special pleading fallacies, false assumptions and question begging, etc), is a good reason to be suspicious of every argument they make.
Clete
I hate to tell you that modern physics is not the hard science that your post makes it out to be. It's evolved into some weird hybrid of mathematics and thought experiments. String Theory, in particular, is entirely untestable. And I mean conceptually, fundamentally, untestable. It not only isn't hard science, it isn't science at all.
When exactly physicists began this departure from the hard science that it used to be in the days of Newton is hard to pin down but if you want proof that physics has taken a trip into La La Land, just read a book called The Dancing Wu Li Masters. It was written in the Eighties and was hailed at the time as one of the greatest non-mathematical books every written on the subject of theoretical physics. I was a teenager when I read that book and thought it was the most profound thing I had ever read. Wow, was I nieve! You don't even have to read it! The title itself tells you all you need to know.
Clete
Right Divider
Body part
You just get sillier with every post Dave.
You probably believe that there are no other planets in the solar system also, right? Even though we can see them and plot their courses.
I tend to agree that string theory, multiuniverses and the like are mathematical speculations. That doesn't turn relativity or quantum mechanics - or gravity, for that matter, into "faith-based" ideas.
God is a master designer.
This is why I was asking you questions about how apples fall. How apples fall has profound implications to our understanding of the world we live on.
On a side note, physics and reason go together very well. When they don't, it is usually because a person is being unreasonable. They often are refusing to honestly examine the evidence to prevent challenging their world view.
All the other planets are flat :chuckle:
You'd be shocked to find out just how connected they all are.
Calling major theories "faith-based" is likely overstating the matter. I'll grant you that but a great many major theories, or at least large portions of them, are not hard science and haven't been for decades.
Space-time as an explanation for gravity is one good example. It IS NOT hard science. It is a purely mathematical construct. The fact that aspects of it have proven accurate and useful does NOT make it hard science. It's all backward! Doing things in reverse order can sometimes yield insights that you hadn't seen before but that doesn't mean it's wise to adopt it as your normal mode of operation.
Newton asked questions and then devised experiments that allowed him to collect data which he made detailed observations of and conclusions about which led to the development of mathematical formulas which he could then apply to other things as an independent test and verification of his previous observations and the conclusions based upon them. That's how hard science works. It begins with reality, with observation, with data. The physicists of today don't start with data or observations, they start with math. They then devise experiments (when it's even possible to do so) that are intended to test what their math tells them to expect but very often, the experimental results are interpreted mathematically. That is to say that they let math tell them what their experimental results mean! That's question begging stupidity! And don't doubt me! That is precisely what they do. It's no more valid that the geologist who dates the rock layers based on which fossils are found in that layer and dates the fossils based on which layer they were found in. Today's physicists have constructed a mathematical worldview and they see everything from within that mathematical paradigm and think that you're stupid or uneducated or whatever if you either don't understand it or don't agree with it. It's one gigantic collective groupthink, confirmation bias, love fest designed to push forward a particular worldview and to maintain professional reputations and keep the government grant money flowing.
Clete
You're just simply wrong on this point, Dave.
Newton didn't just pull the idea of universal gravitation out of a hat.
What Newton did was to ask a question. Why do things fall to the ground?
He then set about making detailed observations about just how things fall. The rate at which they fall, the acceleration of the descent, whether large objects fall faster or slower than smaller objects, etc. He collected data and data and more data and then he applied his singularly brilliant mind to understanding the data that he had so carefully collected. It was not until AFTER he understood the way things fall here on Earth that he began to think about things like the Moon and other celestial bodies. It isn't Newton's fault that the Moon just happens to obey the exact same physical laws that apples do. That's just the facts of nature. Facts of nature that Newton observed with his own eyes with only the help of 17th-century technology. Facts that you could observe yourself. Facts that actually do PROVE that Newton's ideas are correct. It's called multiple, independent verification. What Newton discovered was that the same thing that causes apples to fall to the ground is precisely the same thing that holds the Moon in orbit around the Earth. That isn't what he set out to prove, that's what he discovered during an investigation into how the world works. It should be noted, by the way, that Newton's Universal Gravitation says nothing at all about what causes gravity. It only acknowledges that there is an attractive force between bodies of mass and describes that force. It makes no guess as to gravity's cause.
Newton's laws are among, if not the most extensively tested and scientifically verified ideas that have ever been present in a human mind. Suggesting that Newton was somehow question-begging is the height of intellectual hubris and is the opposite of scientific thinking. If Newton's Laws of motion and of universal gravitation are not verified hard science then nothing is nor even can be.
Not just "a" master designer. He is "the" Master Designer.
Sent from my Pixel XL using TOL mobile app
I have spent time reading and watching video on Physics and the History of it, Closer to Truth has become one of my favorite websites.
View attachment 25502
"Thought experiment" is the beginning of the globe model, and the foundation of quantum mechanics and special relativity. All of modern physics and cosmology is faith based because it's all about an invisible world.
No one can see the sudden appearance of a particles out of nothing, and no one saw the "Big Bang", etc.
Every body who studies this should be honest enough to admit this statement from wikipedia,
"Even with the defining postulates of both Einstein's theory of general relativity and quantum theory being indisputably supported by rigorous and repeated empirical evidence, and while they do not directly contradict each other theoretically (at least with regard to their primary claims), they have proven extremely difficult to incorporate into one consistent, cohesive model." --Link
All of modern cosmology is "incoherent" and quantum is "zen physics".
--Dave
Dave, it seems you're having a hard time separating out truth from fantasy.
Most strong Christians don't believe in a multiverse, but they do believe that our universe isn't just some dome over our heads. You keep implying through what you say that whoever doesn't believe in a flat earth believes in a multiverse, big bang, etc. You would be wrong. Very wrong. I am a Christian who believes the Bible is God's word, that He created the universe (not the dome over the earth, but one filled with celestial bodies called stars and planets) in 6 literal, 24-hour days, that He quite literally stretched out the heavens, and that we are at the center of his attention, that He placed us at the center of the universe that He created for us to explore.
Please stop confusing people like me who believe the above with people who believe in a naturalistic origin for the universe, such as Darwin and Einstein, both of whom died rejecting God.
- Status