The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

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Right Divider

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We must establish a stationary reference point is what you mean.
NO Dave, that is NOT what I mean.

The reference point is considered to be stationary BY DEFINITION

Here is an example that I'm sure that you will not understand:

A jet fighter plane has tracking systems to determine the distance and motion of other objects in the sky. Those other objects are moving relative to the jet fighter itself. The jet fighter is the CHOSEN REFERENCE POINT.​

Something in motion is meaningless without the existence of something that is not in motion.
You must really enjoy making FALSE statements, even though your FALSEHOODS have been explained to you a million times.

The earth is God's immovable reference point for everything else in the cosmos that is in motion.
Nope and repeating this falseness will not make it magically become true.
 
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Right Divider

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A plane moving at 700 mph and less is no match for a gravitational pull that moves the atmosphere at a speed of over 1000 mph in one direction.

--Dave
Another incredibly dumb statement.

The plane is affected by ALL OF THE FORCES that are applied to it.

That you understand almost none of those forces is a shame on you.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
I would like to know more about your and Rocketman's work. What satellites have you worked on.

--Dave
I worked for several space companies most notably the former Space Systems Loral, Now Maxar. I built AND designed large geosynchronous telecommunications satellites. I worked on well over 40 of these satellites. I have taken these satellites to various launch facilities and processed them for launch. I talked all about this in the previous thread you had. Anyway, here is a good video taken at my previous company.

 

genuineoriginal

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Why would God created us with perceptions that did not conform to reality.
There are many things in reality that cannot be seen with our perceptions.

2 Kings 6:17
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.​

 

DFT_Dave

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You just don't like it because it completely destroys your arguments.

I break it up because you make so many different assumptions and claims and conclusions all in one sentence or paragraph that it is extremely difficult to address any of it.

In other words, you obfuscate so that it makes it seem like what you're saying is rational.

The fact that I can pick your replies apart and tear each piece to shreds just shows how weak your position truly is.

Which is saying absolutely nothing at all.

The point is that things that are massive enough will have an atmosphere, from the moon (and even smaller) to the stars, regardless if they're spinning or if they're sphere shaped or space station shaped.

Which is a non-sequitur.

Good grief, Dave, when are you going to stop relying on logical fallacies to support your position.

This is not only false, it's also question begging.

False, and repeating your position, no matter how many times you do so, doesn't make it any more true.

God didn't. Your perceptions are just broken.

Or rather, your paranoid, and the symptoms are that you can't accept reality.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Dave.

Sorry, but I have to laugh a little.

You're using Wikipedia, a site known to be, if not outright Godless, one that resists truth when it comes to the Bible.


* UC History Prof. Debunks Myth of the Flat Earth: Dr. Jeffrey Russell, Professor of History at the University of California, Santa Barbara, has also taught history and religious studies at Berkeley, Harvard, and Notre Dame. His book, Inventing the Flat Earth, documents that in the 19th century a French archaeologist and an American essayist invented and spread the falsehood that educated people in the Middle Ages believed that the earth was flat. RSR notes that the anti-Christians spreading this fabrication allegedly include some of Darwin's promoters like David White, and that the targets of this smear included Christian scholars. Prejudice and myth die hard, and a small army of professional historians have been unable to correct this evolutionist libel against Christians. Toward that end, however, see Dr. Russell's brief article, The Myth of the Flat Earth. Russell there mentions the widespread false belief that in 1491 Christopher Columbus faced inquisitors and theologians who held that the Earth was flat, which mini-myth has been widely debunked and identified as a pure invention of the author Washington Irving.

* Isaiah: God "sits above the circle of the earth": From above, and from every direction, a solid sphere can only be viewed as a circle. Dominic Stratham's article, Isaiah 40:22 the Shape of the Earth, provides many indicators that khûg, the ancient Hebrew word used 2,700 years ago, typically translated into English as "circle", also means sphere. In modern Hebrew both khûg and kaddar mean sphere, as do similar words in other languages, whether possibly coincidental or borrowed or cognate, as with Arabic kura (which word appears in this verse in the most popular Arabic Bible which was translated in 1865). An old German word kugel, the Polish word kula, and the Serbian/Croatian word kugla all mean sphere apparently from the Proto-Indo-European root gug? Also, the pre-modern era renderings of this word khûg as an orb include Bible translations in the 1500s, as sphaera.


From https://kgov.com/flat


It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat.

A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.


From "The Myth of the Flat Earth" link in the above quote from kgov.com.

And let's not forget Job...


And remember that in the most ancient book in the Bible, at Job 26:7, written almost 4,000 years ago in the time of Abraham's great-grandchildren, we read an amazing statement consistent with astronomy's latest models of the solar system, that God "hangs the earth on nothing."


(same kgov link)

... has nothing at all to do with measuring the earth's circumference, Dave.

In other words, you're making a non-sequitur. Your argument DOES NOT FOLLOW.

Because you missed it:

Eratosthenes made the first accurate MEASUREMENT of the earth's circumference.

So you're arguing that it is impossible to be correct in one's cosmology and incorrect in their philosophy?

Because that's the argument you're making about the Greeks.

Philosophy and physics are two completely unrelated topics.

The nature of God has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, Dave.

And NO, one does not have to discard reason, to understand a round earth.

You've only done so because you're intellectually lazy at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

That you think you "destroy my arguments" makes me laugh.

Let me just show you how illiterate you can be.

Myth of the flat Earth
"The myth of the flat Earth is a modern misconception that Earth was believed to be flat rather than spherical by scholars and the educated during the Middle Ages in Europe."--Wiki

Notice carefully, "during the Middle Ages".

Now lets compare this with what I posted.

Flat Earth
"The flat Earth model is an archaic conception of Earth's shape as a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures subscribed to a flat Earth cosmography, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD), and China until the 17th century."--Wiki

Notice carefully that flat earth was the cosmology of "ancients cultures".

These ancient cultures were before the the middle ages.

So I don't know what point you're trying to make, but at least get your history right. Wikipedia is correct about the flat earth history of the "ancient world" and the flat earth myth that flat earth was believed during the "middle ages".

Let me repeat this for you. Flat earth was the belief of the ancient world--BC, way before the Middle ages--AD. The earth was a globe was well established before the Middle Ages. Which is why someone saying that flat earth was the cosmology of the Middle Ages was wrong.

Not only are you wrong about flat earth history, you're also wrong about my argument from perception. My argument is clear and correct with it's conclusion. We don't sense we are on a spinning globe. Our senses tell us we are on a flat motionless earth. This is not a proof, it points out a dilemma that a spinning globe contradicts our God created senses.

Only an astronaut could actually sense a spinning globe. And you know my answer to that.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

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Arbitrarily, yes, BY DEFINITION.

Arbitrarily defined as such, yes.

Why do you assume God needs a reference point for ANYTHING?

Why not let God Himself be the reference point, and go from there?

Sorry, Dave, but geocentrism doesn't work.

If you define the earth as an absolute reference point (arbitrarily, I might add...) then the galaxies would be traveling as fast as 30 trillion times the speed of light, which violates the known laws of physics.

In which case, your only two options are to say that those stars are just a projection or they don't really exist, or to admit that your assumption doesn't work, and that you need to find a better model.

At least we have some agreement. I like that.

"If" the earth is flat and covered by a dome then everything we have been told about the nature, size, and distance of stars is wrong. That's not to say they are merely a projection but Genesis says they are made to give light.

God cannot be a reference point because God is not a stationary place in space.

--Dave
 

JudgeRightly

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That you think you "destroy my arguments" makes me laugh.

That you think your arguments stand in the first place is saddening.

Let me repeat this for you. Flat earth was the belief of the ancient world--BC, way before the Middle ages--AD. The earth was a globe was well established before the Middle Ages. Which is why someone saying that flat earth was the cosmology of the Middle Ages was wrong.

You missed it.

Try again (emphasis mine):



It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat.

A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.



From http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html


Not only are you wrong about flat earth history, you're also wrong about my argument from perception.

You missed it:


A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere.




Eratosthenes accurately MEASURED the circumference of the earth.



My argument is clear and correct with it's conclusion.

Except that it's not. It's full of holes and logical fallacies.

We don't sense we are on a spinning globe.

Because we are moving along with it's spin, dummy.

Our senses tell us we are on a flat motionless earth.

No, it doesn't. That's just the conclusion you've assumed which doesn't match up with observational science.

This is not a proof, it points out a dilemma that a spinning globe contradicts our God created senses.

Except that a spinning globe DOESN'T contradict our God-given senses.

Only an astronaut could actually sense a spinning globe.

So then how can you sense that we're not on one?

Your arguments are so inconsistent it's nearly impossible for you to keep them straight.

And you know my answer to that.

And yet you have people who have worked in the aerospace industry IN THIS VERY THREAD who would have to be lying for you to be right.

Like I said, and will say again:

Flat Earth-ism is a SYMPTOM of paranoia. It is not based in rational thought.


 
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JudgeRightly

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At least we have some agreement. I like that.

"If" the earth is flat and covered by a dome then everything we have been told about the nature, size, and distance of stars is wrong.

And we know it's not because of things like the pythagorean theorem.

That's not to say they are merely a projection but Genesis says they are made to give light.

They're very real, and very far away.

God cannot be a reference point because God is not a stationary place in space.

I feel like a lot of what I say in my posts is lost because you don't respond to my individual points in turn.

"God being a reference point" has nothing to do with physics, because God is not physical (with the exception of Jesus' body).

By definition, there is no such thing as an absolute reference point (that we can determine, at least not currently).

By definition, all motion is defined by arbitrarily assigning an object to be an arbitrary frame of reference.
 

DFT_Dave

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NO Dave, that is NOT what I mean.

The reference point is considered to be stationary BY DEFINITION

Here is an example that I'm sure that you will not understand:

A jet fighter plane has tracking systems to determine the distance and motion of other objects in the sky. Those other objects are moving relative to the jet fighter itself. The jet fighter is the CHOSEN REFERENCE POINT.​

You must really enjoy making FALSE statements, even though your FALSEHOODS have been explained to you a million times.

Nope and repeating this falseness will not make it magically become true.

Motionless is the antithesis of motion. Can't have one without the other.

The earth is God's immovable reference point for everything else in the cosmos that is in motion.
This is a proposition, not a proof.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

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Another incredibly dumb statement.

The plane is affected by ALL OF THE FORCES that are applied to it.

That you understand almost none of those forces is a shame on you.

The greater force will over come the lesser ones.

Molecules being pulled by gravity at 700 mph in the direction of earth's spin is senseless. Someone said we must image we are in a rocket ship travelling through space. I agree. Only a solid dome covering the whole earth like the hull of a rocket ship could keep us in an atmosphere like the one we experience. But then we couldn't go to the moon.

--Dave
 

Right Divider

Body part
The greater force will over come the lesser ones.
The ALL have their effect. It's NOT winner take all

Molecules being pulled by gravity at 700 mph in the direction of earth's spin is senseless.
Well, that's not what happening, so there's that.

Someone said we must image we are in a rocket ship travelling through space. I agree. Only a solid dome covering the whole earth like the hull of a rocket ship could keep us in an atmosphere like the one we experience. But then we couldn't go to the moon.
More repeated stupidity.
 

DFT_Dave

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I worked for several space companies most notably the former Space Systems Loral, Now Maxar. I built AND designed large geosynchronous telecommunications satellites. I worked on well over 40 of these satellites. I have taken these satellites to various launch facilities and processed them for launch. I talked all about this in the previous thread you had. Anyway, here is a good video taken at my previous company.


I want you to know I watched the video. It's getting late and I have to get up early for work, but I will watch it again and ask you some questions about your work and the satellite.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

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There are many things in reality that cannot be seen with our perceptions.

2 Kings 6:17
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.​


I agree with you, but in this case our perceptions contradict reality. This is different than saying there are other things in reality we do not perceive.

--Dave
 

Right Divider

Body part
Not the best picture, but taken personally with my cell phone.
View attachment 26883
Note the curved shadow on the left hand side (the sun was setting to the right).

This clearly demonstrates that the moon is not flat, but a globe. Why would anyone think that the earth in any different?
Nobody, not even Dave, has made ANY attempt to discuss the actual issue here.

The moon shows a curved shadow, proving that it is a sphere.

If the moon is CLEARLY a sphere, why would the earth be flat? (Hint: the earth is NOT flat).
 

DFT_Dave

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That you think your arguments stand in the first place is saddening.

You missed it.

Try again (emphasis mine):



It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat.

A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.



From http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html


You missed it:


A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere.




Eratosthenes accurately MEASURED the circumference of the earth.



Except that it's not. It's full of holes and logical fallacies.

Because we are moving along with it's spin, dummy.

No, it doesn't. That's just the conclusion you've assumed which doesn't match up with observational science.

Except that a spinning globe DOESN'T contradict our God-given senses.

So then how can you sense that we're not on one?

Your arguments are so inconsistent it's nearly impossible for you to keep them straight.

And yet you have people who have worked in the aerospace industry IN THIS VERY THREAD who would have to be lying for you to be right.

Like I said, and will say again:

Flat Earth-ism is a SYMPTOM of paranoia. It is not based in rational thought.






Here again is the quote from Wiki along with the rest of the quote I had original posted.

Flat Earth History
The flat Earth model is an archaic conception of Earth's shape as a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures subscribed to a flat Earth cosmography, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD), and China until the 17th century.

The idea of a spherical Earth appeared in Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most pre-Socratics (6th–5th century BC) retained the flat Earth model. In the early fourth century BC Plato wrote about a spherical Earth, and by about 330 BC his former student Aristotle provided evidence for the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds. Knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.--Wiki

You quoted this "No educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat", and this "A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere."

Now notice this is exactly what Wiki says.

Flat earth goes back further than Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle. Back to 30,000 BC

The point of the article you quoted is not that there was never a belief in flat earth but only that no educating person has believed in flat earth since Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle. There are many who still even today believe in flat earth but they, according to Russell, are not educated. He also made the point that flat earth was not the majority view in the Middle Ages, which is correct.

I hope this is clear now. I still don't know what your point was. I seemed to be that flat earth was never ever believed in past history. Which is wrong. If you were making another point then please clarify it.

--Dave


 

DFT_Dave

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Dave, you can babble on all that you want. YOU are making a little fantasy world for yourself.

No, that is your own personal myth.

Motionless is the antithesis of motion. Can't have one without the other is basic logic. And logic is what you have lost.

"The earth is God's immovable reference point for everything else in the cosmos that is in motion."--DFT Dave

I think I'll copyrite this. You all can quote me.

--Dave
 
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