The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

[DFT_Dave]

You're a complete dork, Dave.

I'm NOT attempted to show a 3D view ... I'm showing you the SIMPLE GEOMETRY that DEFIES the flat earth "model".

Once AGAIN, you are attempting to mix apples and orange. Enjoy your completely CONFUSED fruit salad!

The perspective view is reality. The 2D view is not.

The flat earth is represented by "plane geometry" in "perspective" and that we have peripheral vision.

Your 2D diagram attempts to triangulate without perspective as if we have tunnel vision.

Perspective limits how far we can see into the distance over the plane of the solid earth at the horizon. Earth and oceans appear to rise up to eye level and things in the sky moving parallel to the earth appear to move downward and disappear from sight beyond the horizon line.

Land rises above the horizon and atmospheric density becomes a mass over distance we cannot see through that rises over the oceans and both land mass and atmospheric density mass block what is beyond them from view.

--Dave

 

[Clete]

View attachment 26624

We never see the sun like this.

View attachment 26625

This is how we see it, putting it backwards is being deceptive.

--Dave

Dave,

As I said in the my last post, it seems you are confused about what points are creating the right triangle that I'm talking about in my argument.

I have something you can do that should clear up your confusion on this.

Go to THIS website. It's a site that simply plots the position on the Earth where the Sun and Moon are directly over head. Ignore the style of map. That isn't relevant to the point. All you need is the location where the Sun or Moon is directly over head, which is given in Longitude and Latitude.

Go outside and measure, by whatever means, the angle of the Sun or Moon above the horizon (the Moon is easier because it's not so bright).
(If you have an iPhone, I suggest using THIS app to do the measurement so that you can capture a screen shot and post it here.)

Using the following diagram as a reference...

View attachment 26627

Go HERE and plug in the distance between your location and the subsolar point (side b) and the angle of the Sun above the horizon at your location (angle A) and see how far away the Sun would be if the Earth were flat (side a).

I'm going to do exactly this myself this afternoon. I invite you and anyone who reads this post to do the same at your convenience.

In fact, I'll commit to doing this once an hour for most of the afternoon starting at noon central time and will post the results for each observation as I get them.


Clete

P.S. Far warning, Dave. The Flat Earth Theory is getting ready to be obliterated today. I hope you'll participate.

 

[Yorzhik]

How is it backwards? You're thinking of the wrong triangle. Read the following very carefully...

It isn't backwards. And the argument isn't dependent on which direction the triangle is drawn anyway. Draw it the other way around if you want. The difference is equivalent to one being a sunrise and the other a sunset or the difference between watching the sunset in June vs December.

The triangle doesn't care which way it's drawn. The short side of the triangle is created by the sun being directly over head on some point on the Earth (the subsolar point) and represents the distance from the Earth to the Sun while the longer side, at 90° to the short side, is the distance along the surface of a flat earth between the sub-solar point and any observer at any other point on a flat Earth.

It doesn't make any difference which way you draw the triangle. It can represent an east to west direction or a west to east direction. It doesn't matter one bit. The Pythagorean Theorem dictates everything about any right triangle no matter it's orientation.

I have yet to see Dave engage with anything but the simplest observations, even while he also ignores simple observation that runs counter to his claims. He uses videos to explain anything more complicated than that. I think it's reasonable to posit that he is having trouble focusing on a topic long enough to come to an understanding he can be confident in. He seems to have enough memory of things he learned earlier in life, but he cannot put things he remembers together in a logical progression that goes beyond a few initial simple steps.

Have you noticed this? I'm betting he can feel his own loss of cognition and is trying to account for it.

And, Dave, if you are reading this, I'm not saying you are stupid or senile or losing your mind. I'm saying, if you are feeling what I'm observing, that you should mention it so we can talk with you without so much frustration.

 

[Right Divider]

The perspective view is reality. The 2D view is not.

No Dave, they are BOTH CORRECT. They are demonstrating DIFFERENT THINGS.

Why are you so grossly ignorant about this?

The flat earth is represented by "plane geometry" in "perspective" and that we have peripheral vision.

Off on ANOTHER TANGENT I see.

Peripheral vision has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS.

Your 2D diagram attempts to triangulate without perspective as if we have tunnel vision.

No it DOES NOT Dave. It's showing that even with YOUR MODEL, the Sun is ALWAYS at a MINIMUM of 9 DEGREES ABOVE the horizon even at its FARTHER point from the observer.

We are all just completely amazed that you cannot understand something that any high school freshman would understand.

Perspective limits how far we can see into the distance over the plane of the solid earth at the horizon.

No, it does NO SUCH THING. This is a LIE that you just keep repeating (like you do many others).

Earth and oceans appear to rise up to eye level and things in the sky moving parallel to the earth appear to move downward and disappear from sight beyond the horizon line.

Nope, nothing "disappears from sight beyond the horizon". My diagram PROVES that you are WRONG. But you are blind to any proof, no matter how OBVIOUS it may be.

Land rises above the horizon and atmospheric density becomes a mass over distance we cannot see through that rises over the oceans and both land mass and atmospheric density mass block what is beyond them from view.

Just more babbling.... Stop being a confused liar Dave, it's unbecoming.

 

[chair]

This thread is very sad. Dave doesn't understand simple geometry. He won't go look at a sunset. He is living in a fantasy world where FE video clips are the Truth, and everything else, including simple math and what you see with your own eyes, are lies- Satan generated lies to boot.

Very sad.

 

[Clete]

FYI: It turns out that I had to work this afternoon and wasn’t able to make the observations I wanted make starting at noon central time.
I’ll be finished in time to make some observations starting at about 4:00pm central time.

Clete

 

[Right Divider]

FYI: It turns out that I had to work this afternoon and wasn’t able to make the observations I wanted make starting at noon central time.
I’ll be finished in time to make some observations starting at about 4:00pm central time.

Clete

Good luck on getting him to understand and believe the facts.

 

[Clete]

Okay, well so far the observations are fighting me. First I had to work when I thought I would have the afternoon off and now that I'm off it's overcast with thunderstorms and lightning all over the place.

However, I can still use this same app to get the elevation of the Sun above the horizon at my location and use the current subsolar point to do the calculations.

Currently it is 3:39:12 pm Central time (8:39:12 UTC) and the Sun is 56.8° above my horizon and the subsolar point is at 16,0°N 128,6°W

The Moon is 26.5° above my horizon and the sunlunar point is at 20,8°N 166,4°W

The distance from my house to the subsolar point is 2304.41 miles.

The distance from my house to the sunlunar point is 4405.22 miles.

So, if the Earth were flat, the Sun would have to be 3520 miles above the surface.

And the Moon would be 2200 miles from the surface of the Earth.


I'll do all of this again in an hour and we'll see where the Sun and Moon go.

It would be great if someone in a different location could do the same calculations are virtually the same time because it'll end up showing the Sun in two locations at once again. The higher in the sky the Sun is, the better so that David can't get all tied up with this ridiculous perspective issue down close to the horizon.

I'll take my next measurement at 4:30pm central time (that would be 9:30 pm UTC, by the way)

Clete

 

[Clete]

Currently it is 4:30:00 pm Central time (9:30:00 UTC) and the Sun is 46.1° above my horizon and the subsolar point is at 16,0°N 141,1°W

The Moon is 16.2° above my horizon and the sunlunar point is at 20,8°N 178,4°W

The distance from my house to the subsolar point is 3033.21 miles.

The distance from my house to the sunlunar point is 5104.92 miles.

So, if the Earth were flat, the Sun would have to be 3150 miles above the surface.

And the Moon would be 1480 miles from the surface of the Earth.

So, in less than an hour, the Sun has come 370 miles (10.5%) closer to the Earth and the Moon has come 720 miles (32.7%) closer the the Earth.

I'll do this again in another hour.

Clete

 

[Clete]

It is now 5:30:00 pm Central time (10:30:00 UTC) and the Sun is 33.2° above my horizon and the subsolar point is at 15,9°N 156,2°W

The Moon is 4.4° above my horizon and the sunlunar point is at 20,8°N 167,2°E

The distance from my house to the subsolar point is 3937.31 miles.

The distance from my house to the sunlunar point is 5922.6 miles.

So, if the Earth were flat, the Sun would have to be 2580 miles above the surface.

And the Moon would be 456 miles from the surface of the Earth.


The Sun is now 25% closer the Earth than it was about two hours ago and the Moon is 80% closer to the Earth.


Shall I continue?

I don't see the need. In an hour the Moon will be below the horizon which is not even theoretically possible on a flat Earth where the Moon is constantly in view from somewhere on the surface and the Sun will be forced closer and closer to the Earth.


How many different ways must I prove that the Earth cannot be flat?

This, by itself, is not proof that the Earth is a globe but it is absolute proof that it cannot be flat.

Clete

 

[DFT_Dave]

It is now 5:30:00 pm Central time (10:30:00 UTC) and the Sun is 33.2° above my horizon and the subsolar point is at 15,9°N 156,2°W

The Moon is 4.4° above my horizon and the sunlunar point is at 20,8°N 167,2°E

The distance from my house to the subsolar point is 3937.31 miles.

The distance from my house to the sunlunar point is 5922.6 miles.

So, if the Earth were flat, the Sun would have to be 2580 miles above the surface.

And the Moon would be 456 miles from the surface of the Earth.


The Sun is now 25% closer the Earth than it was about two hours ago and the Moon is 80% closer to the Earth.


Shall I continue?

I don't see the need. In an hour the Moon will be below the horizon which is not even theoretically possible on a flat Earth where the Moon is constantly in view from somewhere on the surface and the Sun will be forced closer and closer to the Earth.


How many different ways must I prove that the Earth cannot be flat?

This, by itself, is not proof that the Earth is a globe but it is absolute proof that it cannot be flat.

Clete

For me to get this can you direct me to a video that shows me "how" you did all this. I wish I could be there with you as you do did it.

Any way I'll look for for a video myself to see if I can find one that helps me get this. You have done so much work on this I want to take some time really understand it.

My first lesson. But I don't think you used a shadow.

--Dave

 

[Clete]

For me to get this can you direct me to a video that shows me "how" you did all this. I wish I could be there with you as you do did it.

Any way I'll look for for a video myself to see if I can find one that helps me get this. You have done so much work on this I want to take some time really understand it.

My first lesson. But I don't think you used a shadow.

--Dave

I used an app on my iPhone called Spyglass.

It's basically a fancy compass that I use every day because I need to know the direction the house I'm inspecting is facing and the compass app that comes with the phone is weak.

It uses the accelerometers and other orientation gadgets that are built into the phone along with my GPS location to show where the Sun, Moon and Polaris are located in the sky at my location. The app is intended for people who do a lot of hiking and that sort of thing but it works great just as a simple sextant.

There are several such apps available for the iPhone and I'm sure for any other phone out there but if you don't want to use your phone, you can make a sextant with a plastic protractor. It won't be nearly as accurate but it'll still give you decent numbers to work with.

There are several other videos on how to make a homemade sextant.

As for the rest, I went to a website that tells me the subsolar and sublunar points...

https://rl.se/sub-solar-point

I plugged in the coordinates into Google Earth and used the measuring tool on Google Earth to measure the distance from those coordinates to my house. I know that Google Earth is based on a globe but the distances between points on the Earth are not disputed by Flat Earthers so it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, the distances would be somewhat smaller on a flat Earth since there is no curvature to deal with and so the bigger numbers actually work to make the results slightly less embarrassing for the Flat Earth model than they would otherwise be.

The rest was just plugging in the numbers on the right triangle calculator...

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm

That's the best I can do. I wish I had video making skills but I just don't. Sorry.

 

[Clete]

Dave,

So, yesterday I did some math using the angle of the Sun and Moon above the horizon and the distances between my location and the locations on the Earth directly below the Sun and Moon.

I'm hoping that it is clear how my location, the subsolar point and the Sun itself create a right triangle and how I took the given data (the length of side b and angle A) and solved for the length of side a.

View attachment 26629

Now what I'd really like for you to do is to go back and read post 3034 again and see if it's now clear to you what it is that I was doing with that math.

It is essentially the exact same thing except that instead of having data for side b and solving for side a, it's the reverse of that. In that post I still have angle A but instead of having a distance along the surface of the Earth, I assume a 3000 mile distance from the subsolar point on the Earth to the Sun (side a) and then I solve for side b.

The result is not only that the subsolar point would be an impossibly far distance away but, just as importantly, given the two sets of simultaneous data, the Sun would have to be in two places at once.

Can you see now that perspective wouldn't have anything to do with these calculations?

Clete

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave,

So, yesterday I did some math using the angle of the Sun and Moon above the horizon and the distances between my location and the locations on the Earth directly below the Sun and Moon.

I'm hoping that it is clear how my location, the subsolar point and the Sun itself create a right triangle and how I took the given data (the length of side b and angle A) and solved for the length of side a.

View attachment 26629

Now what I'd really like for you to do is to go back and read post 3034 again and see if it's now clear to you what it is that I was doing with that math.

It is essentially the exact same thing except that instead of having data for side b and solving for side a, it's the reverse of that. In that post I still have angle A but instead of having a distance along the surface of the Earth, I assume a 3000 mile distance from the subsolar point on the Earth to the Sun (side a) and then I solve for side b.

The result is not only that the subsolar point would be an impossibly far distance away but, just as importantly, given the two sets of simultaneous data, the Sun would have to be in two places at once.

Can you see now that perspective wouldn't have anything to do with these calculations?

Clete

I understand the this View attachment 26629

But what I don't understand is how you get the angle of the sun from your location.

I would like to be able to do the same and be able to get the angle of the sun from my location.

I think that's what you wanted me to do but I was busy moving at the time and could not participate.

I was watching this video and saw that the angle of the sun as established for 2000 years was changed, seems trying to calculate the sun's angle was not an easy thing to do.

--Dave

 

[Clete]

I understand the this View attachment 26629

But what I don't understand is how you get the angle of the sun from your location.

I would like to be able to do the same and be able to get the angle of the sun from my location.

I think that's what you wanted me to do but I was busy moving at the time and could not participate.

I was watching this video and saw that the angle of the sun as established for 2000 years was changed, seems trying to calculate the sun's angle was not an easy thing to do.

--Dave

Measuring the angle of the Sun is not something that can be changed in the way you are suggesting. It's just a simple measurement of the angle of the Sun above the horizon. It changes constantly.

At sunrise and sunset the Sun is at 0° above the horizon. At Noon, it's be something closer to 90°. It only gets to 90° on a day when your location happens to be at the subsolar point which never happens at all if you live north of the Tropic of Cancer or south of the Tropic of Capricorn. We aren't measuring the angle of the Sun relative to the whole Earth and the rest of the Solar System or anything like that. It's just the angle of the Sun relative to your "theoretical" horizon (i.e. ignoring the presence of hills or mountains or other obstructions to what would be your horizon if you were on a large body of water or on a flat plain).

The easiest way to do it is with your cell phone. Do you have an iPhone or Android phone?

If so, download the Spyglass App!

The screen will look something like this...

View attachment 26633

That's a screen shot taken with my phone in my back yard. I intentionally aimed the camera a little off to the side of where the Sun was so that it was easier to read the data.

On the right side of the screen you'll see a little image of the Sun indicating the Sun's position and off to the side of it you'll see it's directional heading and it's elevation above the horizon in degrees. In that photo it is indicating that the Sun is basically on the horizon being only -.2° (two tenths of of one degree) below the horizon. If it were way up in the sky it might read 45.2° or at noon it might say 88.9° or whatever it happens to be at the moment I snap the screen shot. I don't even have to be outside. I can do it from my desk or my car or wherever the phone can read my GPS location.

It's just a sextant measurement, not a complicated astronomical calculation. The video you posted has to do with calculating the distance to the Sun based on the angle of the Sun away from some other body in the solar system. When the Moon is exactly half lit up then the Moon is at point C in the right triangle and the Earth and Sun are at points A and B (it doesn't matter which one you put where). If you know the distance to the Moon (side a) and the angle between the Moon's apparent location and the Sun apparent location (angle A) then you can calculate the distance to the Sun (side c). But if you're off on either the angle or the distance between the Earth and the Moon, then your results will not be accurate. Eratosthenes' thinking was exactly right but his data was off by significant margins. Today, we can directly measure the distance to the Moon or even Venus by bouncing radar waves off the objects and thereby get very accurate calculations of the distance to the Sun. And, knowing the distance to the Sun along with it's apparent angular size, you can calculate it's actual size.

This is how we know for a fact how far away and how big the Sun is along with the distance and size of the Moon and Venus and several other bodies in the solar system.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Dave,

Imagine you are standing directly underneath a basketball hoop (or some other object), which is 10 feet off the ground.

The hoop would be at 90° above your horizon.

Now imagine that I am looking at the same hoop but it is 33.2° up from my horizon.

That puts you at point C and me at point A. How far away are we standing from each other?

Now do the same thing only instead of assuming a 10 foot high object, assume that I am 57 feet away from you. Using the same angles (90° for you and 33.2° for me), calculate how high the object is above your head.

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm


If you do that, you'll have done exactly the same thing I have done with these calculations. The only difference is the distances.

Clete

P.S.

This will likely be the last post from me for a few days. Gonna be busy this weekend.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Here is one of the best videos showing the sun over the ocean getting smaller and smaller as it moves into and beyond the vanishing point of a flat earth.

--Dave

 

[Stripe]

Here is one of the best videos showing the sun over the ocean getting smaller and smaller as it moves into and beyond the vanishing point of a flat earth.

--Dave

:darwinsm:

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Clete]

Every single time I play one these videos, it proves to be a waste of time!

How in the world can these videos convince anyone of anything other than that Flat Earthers are the stupidest people alive?

That video doesn't even show the Sun at all! It shows a boat vanishing from the bottom up into a reflective mirage. Then at 11:55 the idiot mentions the phrase "there's your sunset".


I mean seriously! Are you kidding me or what?

Clete

 

[chair]

...
I mean seriously! Are you kidding me or what?

Clete

Here is one of the best videos showing the sun over the ocean getting smaller and smaller as it moves into and beyond the vanishing point of a flat earth.
...
--Dave