ECT The core of the argument between Christians and MAD.

[Right Divider]

So you say that was the mystery which was hid.

That is what the scripture says, so I say it too.

It was well known by many scriptures that God would accept believers of all nations into His Kingdom.

You are arguing with scripture. Good luck.

You are just willfully and completely blind to the difference between the kingdom and the body.

In fact it was happening all along in one sense.

The mystery hid which was made known since the day of Pentecost is-

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
and that mystery is only known by those who have Christ in them and who live in Him.

However the whole world will know about it when Christ appears in His Fathers Glory.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

LA

That's a cute story. You leave out (ignore) important details.

Col 1:25-29 KJV Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (28) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (29) Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

​

Part of Paul's ministry was to FULFILL THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[Right Divider]

Scripture does not agree with you.

You're wrong and too ignorant to say anything else.

 

[patrick jane]

So you say that was the mystery which was hid.

It was well known by many scriptures that God would accept believers of all nations into His Kingdom.

In fact it was happening all along in one sense.

The mystery hid which was made known since the day of Pentecost is-

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
and that mystery is only known by those who have Christ in them and who live in Him.

However the whole world will know about it when Christ appears in His Fathers Glory.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

.

LA

yes. obviously there are things we do not and cannot know. to argue whether they are "hid" or not . . :sherlock: - i dunno. but we will - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

but actually Revelation 10:7 - says God Has Declared The Mystery to the Prophets - including Paul

 

[Levolor]

You're wrong and too ignorant to say anything else.

Your own attitude is showing that you are standing on sand. It is showing that you have no solid footing on your position as soon as you started stating such things as: "No, you are completely in outer space on that one".

It also shows you are out of ideas and cannot continue in the discussion reasonably, but have to instead start making outrageous allegations.

The problem you are having... you need to take it up with God for it is Him, His word, with which you are having a problem.

That is correct, if something is HID IN GOD, it is NOT KNOWN by ANYONE BUT GOD.

Again, scripture does not agree with you: It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Proverbs 25.2

Look up the meaning of 'conceal'. You should find the synonym of 'hidden'.

Ya know, if you ever wish to start gaining concession points, maybe you should learn how to give them too.

Instead of getting upset, we are to conform ourselves to scripture. God does not change, so we have to. When you start doing that, you may find some things revealed to you that is hidden/concealed from others. I'd be very happy for you should this occur for you.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

but actually Revelation 10:7 - says God Has Declared The Mystery to the Prophets - including Paul

I never said otherwise.

but MADists say Paul was the first and he taught the other Apostles, which of course is heresy.



LA

 

[Levolor]

but actually Revelation 10:7 - says God Has Declared The Mystery to the Prophets - including Paul

As well as all His other prophets, and I take that to mean through out time... O.T. through the N.T.

There are prophets with us today. 1 Corinthians 12:28 and we know who they are by Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

 

[patrick jane]

As well as all His other prophets, and I take that to mean through out time... O.T. through the N.T.

There are prophets with us today. 1 Corinthians 12:28 and we know who they are by Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

Amen. atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

I never said otherwise.

but MADists say Paul was the first and he taught the other Apostles, which of course is heresy.



LA

yes. Paul was the first to receive The Gospel Of Grace. plainly written. of course, God was not Graceless before Paul. ridiculous connection - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

look at the timeline again, of Paul's epistles. any inference to Grace (specifically Gospel of Grace) written by Peter, Luke or other Authors was certainly After Paul's Dispensation From Christ. After hearing FROM or speaking TO - guess who ? Paul

 

[intojoy]

Prove it by giving a short term prophecy. If it doesn't come to pass then I have right to rock pile u

 

[patrick jane]

you will continue to hate


But I am NOT a Prophet

 

[intojoy]

 

[Lazy afternoon]

look at the timeline again, of Paul's epistles. any inference to Grace (specifically Gospel of Grace) written by Peter, Luke or other Authors was certainly After Paul's Dispensation From Christ. After hearing FROM or speaking TO - guess who ? Paul

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


LA

 

[heir]

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


LA

not one mention of the gospel of Christ

 

[Nick M]

Scripture does not agree with you.

Another for choleric's list.

 

[Right Divider]

Your own attitude is showing that you are standing on sand. It is showing that you have no solid footing on your position as soon as you started stating such things as: "No, you are completely in outer space on that one".

It also shows you are out of ideas and cannot continue in the discussion reasonably, but have to instead start making outrageous allegations.

The problem you are having... you need to take it up with God for it is Him, His word, with which you are having a problem.

This kind of "politician" rhetoric will not work on me Levolor.

Again, scripture does not agree with you: It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Proverbs 25.2

Look up the meaning of 'conceal'. You should find the synonym of 'hidden'.

You seem to another of the "dictionary" theologians here.

The meaning of a word is determined by the CONTEXT in which it is used. It depends on the OTHER words that are used with it. You cannot force the SAME meaning on it every time that it is used.

Paul adds the words "IN GOD" to this, "HID IN GOD". He is making it CLEAR that it was NOT KNOWN before. But you think you know better.

Ya know, if you ever wish to start gaining concession points, maybe you should learn how to give them too.

I'm not looking for points, just saying it straight.

Instead of getting upset, we are to conform ourselves to scripture. God does not change, so we have to. When you start doing that, you may find some things revealed to you that is hidden/concealed from others. I'd be very happy for you should this occur for you.

I'm not upset. If you simply think that you know things that you don't. There are many things that God revealed FOR THE FIRST TIME to Paul. So get over it.

 

[Levolor]

Your own attitude is showing that you are standing on sand. It is showing that you have no solid footing on your position as soon as you started stating such things as: "No, you are completely in outer space on that one".

It also shows you are out of ideas and cannot continue in the discussion reasonably, but have to instead start making outrageous allegations.

The problem you are having... you need to take it up with God for it is Him, His word, with which you are having a problem.

This kind of "politician" rhetoric will not work on me Levolor.

It would have not been necessary to say any of that if you were able to reconcile scripture... have them harmonize. It is all too apparent that this has not yet been done by you. Otherwise, you would not have ignored scripture and gone off about making outrageous allegations, including that of my being a politician.

First you say that I am in outer space, now you have me being a politician.

You seem to another of the "dictionary" theologians here.

Knowing what words actually mean, and not making words mean what someone wants them to mean, promotes not only understanding, but also profitable discussion.

Our discussion deteriorated as soon as you were unable to reconcile scripture based on the meaning of words... specifically those of: hid and conceal.

The meaning of a word is determined by the CONTEXT in which it is used. It depends on the OTHER words that are used with it. You cannot force the SAME meaning on it every time that it is used.

Actually, according to Strong's concordance the words used in each verse (Ephesians 3:9 and Proverbs 25:2) have the definition of: to hide, conceal.

So, as you see, I didn't force the same meaning onto them. They do have the same meaning in each verse. Despite your wanting them to mean something different in each verse.

Paul adds the words "IN GOD" to this, "HID IN GOD". He is making it CLEAR that it was NOT KNOWN before.

For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. Luke 2:30, 31, 32

This man knew before.

But you think you know better.

Yes, yes I do know better. Scripture says so. Jesus says so.

Either you believe Jesus and His written word or not.

I'm not upset.

If you simply think that you know things that you don't.

The underlined sentence is incomplete... a fragment.

There are many things that God revealed FOR THE FIRST TIME to Paul. So get over it.

Surely it was the first time for Paul. When Peter saw it, it was the first time for Peter as well.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56



Jesus tell us in Revelation 1:6 that he has made us a kingdom of kings and priests, and Proverbs 25:2 tells us that kings search out a matter.

Do you know what kings and priests have in the kingdom of God?


Jesus tells us in John 15:15 that His friends know what He does.

No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

That would include the ability to reconcile scriptures without the need to ignore any.

 

[Right Divider]

It would have not been necessary to say any of that if you were able to reconcile scripture... have them harmonize. It is all too apparent that this has not yet been done by you. Otherwise, you would not have ignored scripture and gone off about making outrageous allegations, including that of my being a politician.

First you say that I am in outer space, now you have me being a politician.

No, I did not call you a politician. I said that you use the same type of rhetoric.

Knowing what words actually mean, and not making words mean what someone wants them to mean, promotes not only understanding, but also profitable discussion.

You are doing the EXACT thing that you accuse me of doing. It is YOU that forces YOUR meaning into Proverbs when it has NOTHING to do with the scripture being discussed.

You simply do not know what Paul means. That's fine. But don't pretend like you're smart.

Actually, according to Strong's concordance the words used in each verse (Ephesians 3:9 and Proverbs 25:2) have the definition of: to hide, conceal.

Once again, words have meaning IN A CONTEXT. When Jesus says that He is the DOOR, do you think that he is made of wood or steel?

Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

You don't know the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. You prefer that which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. They're both from God and perfect, but not the same.

In the dispensation of the fullness of times, they will be joined into ONE in Christ.

Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
​

 

[Levolor]

No, I did not call you a politician. I said that you use the same type of rhetoric.

I'll concede that.

You are doing the EXACT thing that you accuse me of doing. It is YOU that forces YOUR meaning into Proverbs when it has NOTHING to do with the scripture being discussed.

Yes, it does. It is rightly dividing the word of God.

Ignore that they mean the same word as proven by Strong's. You don't have to answer to me on judgement day.

You simply do not know what Paul means. That's fine. But don't pretend like you're smart.

Now how could I do ever do that? lol :rotfl:

I am curious, however, how come you did not address what else was said. I can only think it is inability.

You know, previously you said that you weren't angry; then, why all the shouting? Just look at all these all-caps words! If it is for emphasis, you don't have to shout. There are other means.

As for Paul, I understand him just fine.

Once again, words have meaning IN A CONTEXT. When Jesus says that He is the DOOR, do you think that he is made of wood or steel?

Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

You don't know the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. You prefer that which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. They're both from God and perfect, but not the same.

In the dispensation of the fullness of times, they will be joined into ONE in Christ.

Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
​

Yes, the gentiles did not know the salvation of the Lord prior to Christ... it was unknown to them. It, the salvation of the gentiles... with Christ within, was unknown to them. It was, however, known to the prophets of God.

The man in Luke knew before.

For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. Luke 2:30, 31,
32

Why can't you just admit it?

I do know why. It's because it is too scary to admit to yourself that you might by wrong. The whole house of what you believe will fall down and you won't have anything to stand on.

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matthew 7:27

Only the brave are willing to admit where they are mistaken. By their doing so, the brave will then be able to stand on the rock, which is Christ. Hallelujah.