the church
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
What if they were to ask, "Show us in Scripture where there is a distinction between the Church that the Lord built upon Peter, and the Church built upon Christ?"
Right Divider
Body part
Once again, the body analogy is never used of the church which is composed of twelve tribes. That church was given the law and the promises, etc. etc.
Paul is not talking about that church when he is talking about the church which is His body.
It's all clearly shown in the Bible.
Right Divider
Body part
There is no church built upon Peter.
Yes . . . the Church, specifically.
Yes, the dioceses and their parishes. Romans was written to the Roman diocese (note Paul's words concerning this church: "your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" Ro 1:8KJV; i.e., the faith of the Roman church), as 1st and 2nd Corinthians (along with Clement's later epistle) were written to the Corinthian diocese.
We glean from the Bible that the nature of the Church is that she is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
The earliest Church was not "fully Israelite," since Gentile proselytes were also of that same Church, as testified to in Acts 2 (Ac2:8-10KJV).
:chuckle: Well there sure is!
Right Divider
Body part
The fact that you feel the need to capitalize the word shows that your bias is distorting your view.
Again, your bias attempts to overrule all.
Yes, I did not attempt to get into EVERY detail. God allowed others besides members of the 12 tribes into THAT church.
None of that biased opinion of yours changes the fact that God was doing something special with Paul. Or the fact that he describes the church which is His body is very different terms than the one in Jerusalem led by the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes.
Right Divider
Body part
No, there isn't. :nono:
neither does popie. catholics often use the expression, "One fold and one shepherd" to sustain the doctrine of the papacy. (SeeCatholic Catechism For Adults, p. 59, q. 3). They teach that the "one shepherd" is the Pope and the "one fold" represents the Catholic Church. Hear what Jesus said about it:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep...I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." (John 10:11, 14-16).
Jesus is that one good shepherd. If one can understand that one and one equals two, he can understand this. If one is subject to Christ as the one shepherd--that's one. If one is subject to the Pope as the one Shepherd--that's two!
Last edited:
glassjester
Well-known member
This is an erroneous belief.
Taken in its totality, Scripture points us to one Church.
Christ founded one Church. You will not find anywhere in Scripture that Christ founded two churches.
Consider:
Matthew 26:26 - While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17 - Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
The verses above illustrate a clear continuity between the Church founded in the Gospels, and the Church preached by Paul. Christ founded one Church.
thats right. the New Testament plainly reveals that a great corruption from the simple form of government which God ordained would slowly develop (1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Acts 20:28-31). The book entitled, My Catholic Faith lists the many offices in the present day hierarchy of the Catholic church.
"1. In organization the Church is like a vast army; the Pope, its visible head, is commander-in-chief of this army.
"2. Cardinals, appointed by the Pope, are his principal advisers and assistants in the government of the Church.
"3. Patriarch is a bishop who holds the highest rank after the Pope, in jurisdiction.
"4. An archbishop is the head of an archdiocese; a bishop of a diocese...
"5. Legates, nuncious, internucious, and apostolic delegates are representatives of the Holy Father.
"6. Titular archbishops and bishops are those who hold the title of a see that formerly existed.
"7. Honorary prelates are those with a title, but without jurisdiction." (My Catholic Faith, p. 129).
None of the above offices in the Catholic Church are mentioned in the New Testament of Christ. As we have shown, the New Testament does specify "bishops," but they in no way resembled present day Catholic bishops. There was always a plurality of men chosen and appointed in each local church (Acts 14:23). They had to be married men (1 Tim. 3:2) with believing children (Titus 1:6) and were to oversee only one church (1 Pet. 5:2). All of the above mentioned Catholic offices were slowly developed over a period of several hundred years. The following Catholic sources freely admit this.
"The divine institution of the threefold hierarchy cannot of course be derived from our text; in fact it cannot in anyway be proved directly from the New Testament; it is a Catholic dogma by virtue of the dogmatic tradition, i.e., in a later period of ecclesiastical history the general belief in the divine institutions of the episcopate, presbyteriate, and diaconate can be verified and thence followed on through the centuries. But the dogmatic truth cannot be traced back to Christ Himself by analysis of strict historical testimony." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VII, p. 334).
"The word (hierarchy, DJR) first occurs in the work of pseudo-Dionysis on Celestial and Ecclesiastical Hierarchies. The signification was gradually modified until it came to be what it is at the present. A hierarchy now signifies a body of officials disposed organically in ranks and orders, each subordinate to the one above it." (Catholic Dictionary, p. 402).
"In his (Paul's, DJR) opinion the words (presbuteros and episkopos, DJR) were at one time used one for the other, but there has been a gradual adaptation of names corresponding with the progressive evolution of the hierarchy..." (A Catholic Commentary, p. 1144).
"Some parts of the governmental system of the Catholic Church are of divine origin; and many of them are human institutions." (Externals of the Catholic Church, p. 19).
Consequently, the present hierarchy of the Catholic Church was not ordained by Christ. All the modern offices in Catholicism were developed over a period of many centuries by men who had no regard or respect for God's arrangement. With this thought in mind, consider the absurdity of the following "official" claims.
"History proves conclusively that the same doctrines were in the Church from the beginning." (Catholic Facts, p. 209).
"Has the Catholic Church ever changed its teaching? No, for 2,000 years the Church has taught the same thing which Jesus taught." (A Catechism For Adults, p. 57).
"It is a historical fact that the Catholic Church, from the twentieth century back to the first, has not once ceased to teach a doctrine on faith or morals previously held, and with the same interpretation; the Church has proved itself infallible." (My Catholic Faith, p. 145).
Last edited:
I do not understand you. The Lord said and I quote, "I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," and you say---and you believe the Bible---that, "There is no church built upon Peter."
Oh, I get it. You don't believe that "Peter" is "this rock."
lain:Let me guess! Bias.
Right Divider
Body part
The great and wise glassjester has spoken. Who can withstand?
When did this one church get founded and why does your bias require you to capitalize the word?
Neither one of those is referring to "a church" or "the church". Once again, your bias interferes with your ability to understand what is actually being said.
Did you read the whole chapter, or just a couple of verses?
1Cor 10:1-4 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Notice the history lesson here? This is about the same "church in the wilderness" that Stephen talks about in Acts 7. This is the ROCK that this church is founded upon.
Once again I ask, when was this "one church" founded?
Right Divider
Body part
THIS rock is NOT referring to Peter but to what Peter said.I do not understand you. The Lord said and I quote, "I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," and you say---and you believe the Bible---that, "There is no church built upon Peter."
Oh, I get it. You don't believe that "Peter" is "this rock."
Let me guess! Bias.
Matt 16:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus was not starting a NEW church, He was building on an existing one.
1Cor 10:1-6 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (10:5) But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (10:6) Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
This is the SAME church that Stephen talks about in Acts 7.
Acts 7:37-40 (AKJV/PCE)
(7:37) ¶ This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. (7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (7:39) To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, (7:40) Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for [as for] this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
So YES, your bias blinds you.
glassjester
Well-known member
Jesus said to eat the bread that is His body.
Paul said that we who eat the bread are one body.
Paul said Jesus' body is the Church.
Bread of Life = Body of Christ (Jesus says so)
Body of Christ = The Church (Paul says so)
Therefore, the Bread of Life that Jesus taught is His body, must necessarily be the same body as the Church that Paul taught us is Jesus' body.
Unless Christ has two bodies.
Is Christ divided?
No.
He did not say that.
Right Divider
Body part
I can see that you prefer to ignore ALL of my post except for the tiny bit that gets you back to your "story". So much for dialog.
Keep your Roman church, it's not the church of God.
Right Divider
Body part
Another one that just IGNORES the bulk of a post and sticks with their Roman bias. Such a good little cathoholic.
glassjester
Well-known member
First things first.
Christ has one body. He is not divided.
On this we agree.
Christ says the Bread of Life is His body.
Paul says Christ's body is the Church.
Jesus, as the Bread of Life, bridges the gap that you believe lies between the Church preached in the gospels, and the Church preached by Paul. They are both the Body of Christ.
They are one Church.
Christ has one body.
Perhaps the problem is that you do not believe Christ when He says, "For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink."