The "Church" at Acts 2 is NOT the Body of Christ

[Jerry Shugart]

As you know that has already been addressed multiple times elsewhere. If you need to keep repeating the same thing to reassure and reassert yourself what is that to me?

Let us look at this passage where we see the LORD sitting upon His throne:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

And then later we see the Lord Jesus also describing Himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end":

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

How do we know that this is the Lord Jesus speaking? Because John understood that it was the Lord Jesus speaking:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus"(Rev.22:20).​

Since there can only be One being who can be the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" we can know that the Lord Jesus is God.

 

[daqq]

Let us look at this passage where we see the LORD sitting upon His throne:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

And then later we see the Lord Jesus also describing Himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end":

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

How do we know that this is the Lord Jesus speaking? Because John understood that it was the Lord Jesus speaking:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus"(Rev.22:20).​

Since there can only be One being who can be the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" we can know that the Lord Jesus is God.

Again we have already been over just a small portion of this topic in another thread and you openly rejected the plain truth. There is no sense in trying to fully explain the remainder in any more depth because you are not willing to let go of your pride and believe the truth. First you need to step back and turn your heart toward the Father, and stop calling the Son the Father because it is an affront to all that is truth, extremely ignorant, and a rejection of one of the most basic principles found in the scripture. A father is never his own son: your theology is completely unnatural and violates the very meanings of the words "father" and "son". Not long ago your own son was posting in this forum board for a while, so I know by this that you have a son, and I know that you must in some small way understand what I am about to say to you: ARE YOU YOUR OWN SON? IS HE YOU? WHO CAME FORTH FROM WHO? DUH! HOW CAN ANYONE BE SO BLIND?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again we have already been over just a small portion of this topic in another thread and you openly rejected the plain truth. There is no sense in trying to fully explain the remainder in any more depth because you are not willing to let go of your pride and believe the truth.

As usual all you do is to give an excuse as to why you run and hide from the verses which I quoted.

 

[daqq]

As usual all you do is to give an excuse as to why you run and hide from the verses which I quoted.

You have already been shown from the Septuagint why you are incorrect. You rejected the understanding of those fathers which came three hundred years before the advent of Messiah in favor of your own Trinitarian minded KJV English fathers who came sixteen hundred years after the advent of Messiah. There is no sense even trying to convince you of anything else beyond your initial rejection of what most all of the apostolic writers quoted from, (the Septuagint), in the Greek New Testament. If you will not hear the apostles of Messiah then you certainly will not hear me.

 

[meshak]

You have already been shown from the Septuagint why you are incorrect. You rejected the understanding of those fathers which came three hundred years before the advent of Messiah in favor of your own Trinitarian minded KJV English fathers who came sixteen hundred years after the advent of Messiah. There is no sense even trying to convince you of anything else beyond your initial rejection of what most all of the apostolic writers quoted from, (the Septuagint), in the Greek New Testament. If you will not hear the apostles of Messiah then you certainly will not hear me.

good for you

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You have already been shown from the Septuagint why you are incorrect.

The verses which I quoted are from the book of Revelation so when you speak of the LXX you are just trying to change the subject. You continue to run and hide from the verses which I quoted from the Revelation of John.

 

[daqq]

The verses which I quoted are from the book of Revelation so when you speak of the LXX you are just trying to change the subject. You continue to run and hide from the verses which I quoted from the Revelation of John.

That is yet another reason there is no reason to debate much else with you: you are not willing to follow the very simple flow of logic, common sense, and reasoning, (logos). Neither of the "Alpha and Omega" passages you quoted above are the first place where that phrase is mentioned but rather, with that author, that phrase originates in Rev. Ch. 1 where it is clearly used concerning the Father; which again is clearly revealed in the Septuagint. However, not only in this case but as in many other instances already plainly discussed with you elsewhere, the flow of simple systematic logic, reasoning, and common sense, destroys your perverted theology of a father being his own son, (which, again, is not even truly Trinitarian but some concocted mixture of Oneness and Modalism which shapeshifts according to the situation whenever and wherever it suits your need to shapeshift the image).

 

[meshak]

That is yet another reason there is no reason to debate much else with you: you are not willing to follow the very simple flow of logic, common sense, and reasoning,

Exactly. There are many posters like him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Neither of the "Alpha and Omega" passages you quoted above are the first place where that phrase is mentioned but rather, with that author, that phrase originates in Rev. Ch. 1 where it is clearly used concerning the Father

It is used in regard to the Almighty God. and once again you fail to address the fact that in the following passage the Lord Jesus refers to Himself this way:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

Now let us look at the verse which you previously cited:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Those with the slightest degree of spiriual discernment know that there in only One being who can be described as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, and that is the Almighty God. The fact that the Lord Jesus is described in the same way proves that He is the Almighty God.

 

[daqq]

Let us look at this passage where we see the LORD sitting upon His throne:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

And then later we see the Lord Jesus also describing Himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end":

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

How do we know that this is the Lord Jesus speaking? Because John understood that it was the Lord Jesus speaking:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus"(Rev.22:20).​

Since there can only be One being who can be the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" we can know that the Lord Jesus is God.

As usual all you do is to give an excuse as to why you run and hide from the verses which I quoted.

The verses which I quoted are from the book of Revelation so when you speak of the LXX you are just trying to change the subject. You continue to run and hide from the verses which I quoted from the Revelation of John.

It is used in regard to the Almighty God. and once again you fail to address the fact that in the following passage the Lord Jesus refers to Himself this way:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

Now let us look at the verse which you previously cited:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Those with the slightest degree of spiriual discernment know that there in only One being who can be described as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, and that is the Almighty God. The fact that the Lord Jesus is described in the same way proves that He is the Almighty God.

Exactly. There are many posters like him.

Hi Meshak, yep, and he has his groupies and followers who run around thanking him for his delusions which support their own similar delusions, while at the same time he lies about others by saying they have never answered him, when in fact he himself is the one who still has yet to even answer to most of what has already shown to him manifold times; the following being merely one example out of many, here:

I have already explained what is meant by the term "Son of God." In fact, that is the subject of this thread. And so far you have not even attempted to prove anything which I wrote is in error.

Plus you just ignored the context of Revelation 1:8 which makes it plain that the One who is "to come" is the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).​

Why do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8?

I answered what you said. We can clearly see that the words at Revelation 1:8 is a "testimony" from Someone.

And John makes it plain whose testimony that is:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).​

Not only do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8 but you also refuse to consider who is giving His testimony in that verse.

You will never come to the knowledge of the truth if you interpret the Bible according to your preconceived ideas.

It was me who already answered you and you never even responded even though you continued posting in that thread after I answered you. Anyone can go back and see that it was you who entirely ignored and avoided what was said when I addressed your invalid assertions concerning Rev 1:8. How can you expect anyone to believe anything else you say when you practice such shady tactics while knowingly falsely accusing people? Do you really suppose that having a herd of others agreeing with you simply because of a dogma makes your dogma right?

Yes, and these words spoken by the Lord Jesus prove that He is the Almighty:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).
​

Then tell me who this is referring to:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Yes, and these words spoken by the Lord Jesus prove that He is the Almighty:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Then tell me who this is referring to:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Yohanan says that phrase concerns the Father in a preceding passage:

Revelation 1:4-5 ASV
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;

Revelation 1:4 W/H
4 ιωαννης ταις επτα εκκλησιαις ταις εν τη ασια χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος και απο των επτα πνευματων α ενωπιον του θρονου αυτου

"ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος" = "Who Is - and - Who Was - and - Who Is To Come"

And "ο ων" is the critical portion from the Name of the Father in Exodus 3:14 in the LXX-Septuagint:

Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint
14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας

Exodus 3:14 LXX - Brenton English Translation
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

As anyone may see the focus is not on "εγω ειμι", ("I am"), but the Eternal Existing One, ("ο ων").

From the Brenton Translation: "ο ων" ("HO ON") = "THE BEING"

In the mind of the first century reader who knows the scripture this statement, "ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος", clearly speaks of the Father. The text likewise plainly shows this to be the case because the opening greeting is from ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος, (via Yohanan), and that is a greeting from the Father, (in bold royal blue in the above quote), and next is given a greeting from the seven Spirits which are before His throne, (in bold bright blue in the above quote), then only after those two greetings comes the greeting from Messiah, (in bold red in the above quote), which is clearly and deliberately separated from the first greeting by way of Yohanan from the Father, (ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος).

You never responded to the above post and neither can you refute my first post in this thread.

Anyone willing to read the above post, including what is in the quote boxes from other previous threads even before that one, will see that he is lying when he accuses me of running and hiding, and will clearly also see that what he says is actually true concerning himself. There is no more reason to go through the trouble of posting the same things to him over and over again because tomorrow he will be posting the same buffoonery all over again claiming the same things all over again. He really shows the characteristics of a legally insane person who keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result with every new attempt. He does not care about knowing the truth but rather spreading his own privately held dogma as far and wide as he possibly can so as to make himself a name. If he cared about the truth he would have responded accordingly, a very long time ago, and his doctrine would have changed so as to match what is written.

And then look at his response to the above in that thread:

Are you under the illusion that what you just quoted is on this thread?

Perhaps you will tell me exactly where I can find the posts of yours of which you speak.

He pretends not to understand and proceeds to ask me to tell him where to find the quotes that I had just quoted with links included! He actually asked me to tell him what I had just told him as if I had not just told him! :rotfl:

There surely cannot be many more at this board who are so blind and deluded as Jerry Shugart. And his blindness is his due reward for changing the truth of Elohim into a lie and his reckless disregard for what Paul clearly says in Romans 1:18-23.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Hi Meshak, yep, and he has his groupies and followers who run around thanking him for his delusions which support their own similar delusions, while at the same time he lies about others by saying they have never answered him, when in fact he himself is the one who still has yet to even answer to most of what has already shown to him manifold times; the following being merely one example out of many, here:



Anyone willing to read the above post, including what is in the quote boxes from other previous threads even before that one, will see that he is lying when he accuses me of running and hiding, and will clearly also see that what he says is actually true concerning himself. There is no more reason to go through the trouble of posting the same things to him over and over again because tomorrow he will be posting the same buffoonery all over again claiming the same things all over again. He really shows the characteristics of a legally insane person who keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result with every new attempt. He does not care about knowing the truth but rather spreading his own privately held dogma as far and wide as he possibly can so as to make himself a name. If he cared about the truth he would have responded accordingly, a very long time ago, and his doctrine would have changed so as to match what is written.

And then look at his response to the above in that thread:



He pretends not to understand and proceeds to ask me to tell him where to find the quotes that I had just quoted with links included! He actually asked me to tell him what I had just told him as if I had not just told him! :rotfl:

There surely cannot be many more at this board who are so blind and deluded as Jerry Shugart. And his blindness is his due reward for changing the truth of Elohim into a lie and his reckless disregard for what Paul clearly says in Romans 1:18-23.

Daqq,

Once you said that timelessness separated God the Father from God the Son. Your acknowledged that Jesus was God in timelessness. You had this discussion with me when I was "NIG".

You had to go outside the 66 book cannon to revert to where you are now. What is so upsetting about God being humble enough to lay His life down in flesh for us?

How do you even begin to side with Meshak in these matters? What allows you to deny verses like Rm. 8:9 ?

What is your loophole for Romans 8:9 ? Is this about ego? I wish I wasn't on the opposing side of a matter with you, because you are my friend. I just don't get why you are so angry at the attack on Spiritual Israel Doctrine that is clearly false. But, more shocking is your anger at the exaltation of Gods Saccrifice for humanity.

Is your faith in Christ Crucified as Paul says it should be, or not?

Daqq, come clean... you say you use just the Bible. Do you acknowledge that Jehovahs Wittnesses are a false theology that distort the Bible? Do you acknowledge that the Watchtower is a false idol?

 

[daqq]

Daqq,

Once you said that timelessness separated God the Father from God the Son. Your acknowledged that Jesus was God in timelessness. You had this discussion with me when I was "NIG".

You had to go outside the 66 book cannon to revert to where you are now. What is so upsetting about God being humble enough to lay His life down in flesh for us?

How do you even begin to side with Meshak in these matters? What allows you to deny verses like Rm. 8:9 ?

What is your loophole for Romans 8:9 ? Is this about ego? I wish I wasn't on the opposing side of a matter with you, because you are my friend. I just don't get why you are so angry at the attack on Spiritual Israel Doctrine that is clearly false. But, more shocking is your anger at the exaltation of Gods Saccrifice for humanity.

Is your faith in Christ Crucified as Paul says it should be, or not?

Daqq, come clean... you say you use just the Bible. Do you acknowledge that Jehovahs Wittnesses are a false theology that distort the Bible? Do you acknowledge that the Watchtower is a false idol?

I shy away from denouncing whole faith groups until one of theirs attacks me first. Then it is, that what they believe comes under the umbrella of proving why their attacks on myself, (almost always personal attacks), are false accusations and generally nothing more than slander. If their church dogma gets thrown by the wayside at the same time then perhaps they should have obeyed the commandments of the Master to begin with and should have treated others as they would like to be treated, eh? You know this, right? Judge not lest you be judged, right? So at the same time their false religion also gets trashed, so what? That is still a good thing in the long run because they are deceiving both themselves and others if they are not willing to bow to the Word just as Jerry Shugart is clearly not willing to do. But I do not often find JW's, Mormons, Unitarians, nor too many other what you might call "fringe" sects, attacking me personally. This is not face to face where I would no doubt turn the other cheek; but this is an internet forum board where if you turn the other cheek you get railroaded, slandered, lied about, and tossed aside as refuse. I do not see where I should not be allowed to defend both myself, and what I believe to be true, especially if and when I can do so by way of the scripture. As for your stance you have called what I believe a "doctrine of demons" and in my book you blaspheme the body of the faithful who are in Messiah and the clear Testimony of Yeshua when you do so; and even worse, you do so in order to uphold a carnal physical flesh minded understanding of Israel in clear opposition to both the Master Teacher Yeshua and the clear teachings of Paul who openly tells you who is Yhudi and what it means to be Yhudi. You therefore glory in the flesh and the persons of men while the Master plainly tells you that the flesh profits nothing. As for Elohim there are many different meanings of that word: even father Abraham is an Elohim by the Testimony of Messiah. Is father Abraham outside of time? I suppose he is now, eh?

 

[marhig]

Daqq,

Once you said that timelessness separated God the Father from God the Son. Your acknowledged that Jesus was God in timelessness. You had this discussion with me when I was "NIG".

You had to go outside the 66 book cannon to revert to where you are now. What is so upsetting about God being humble enough to lay His life down in flesh for us?

How do you even begin to side with Meshak in these matters? What allows you to deny verses like Rm. 8:9 ?

What is your loophole for Romans 8:9 ? Is this about ego? I wish I wasn't on the opposing side of a matter with you, because you are my friend. I just don't get why you are so angry at the attack on Spiritual Israel Doctrine that is clearly false. But, more shocking is your anger at the exaltation of Gods Saccrifice for humanity.

Is your faith in Christ Crucified as Paul says it should be, or not?

Daqq, come clean... you say you use just the Bible. Do you acknowledge that Jehovahs Wittnesses are a false theology that distort the Bible? Do you acknowledge that the Watchtower is a false idol?

Where does it say in the Bible that we are to have faith in Christ crucified?

We are to have faith in God and Christ, it doesn't say in the Bible that we are to have faith in Christ crucified!

And there are many many verses that show that Jesus isn't God. But you all just bypass and ignore them to push your false Trinitarian doctrine.

There is one God, there is no such thing as a three in one God. That is never preached in the Bible, no God the son, and no trinity and no telling us that we have to believe in a triune God or to believe in a trinity to be saved.

We are to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

And Jesus Christ said this is life eternal to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent!

John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

And that is what daqq, I and others who listen to Christ Jesus believe

It is not something that comes from the jehovahs witnesses, it's the teaching of Jesus Christ and his apostles

There is one God and he's the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 8

But to us there is but.one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I shy away from denouncing whole faith groups until one of theirs attacks me first. Then it is, that what they believe comes under the umbrella of proving why their attacks on myself, (almost always personal attacks), are false accusations and generally nothing more than slander. If their church dogma gets thrown by the wayside at the same time then perhaps they should have obeyed the commandments of the Master to begin with and should have treated others as they would like to be treated, eh? You know this, right? Judge not lest you be judged, right? So at the same time their false religion also gets trashed, so what? That is still a good thing in the long run because they are deceiving both themselves and others if they are not willing to bow to the Word just as Jerry Shugart is clearly not willing to do. But I do not often find JW's, Mormons, Unitarians, nor too many other what you might call "fringe" sects, attacking me personally. This is not face to face where I would no doubt turn the other cheek; but this is an internet forum board where if you turn the other cheek you get railroaded, slandered, lied about, and tossed aside as refuse. I do not see where I should not be allowed to defend both myself, and what I believe to be true, especially if and when I can do so by way of the scripture. As for your stance you have called what I believe a "doctrine of demons" and in my book you blaspheme the body of the faithful who are in Messiah and the clear Testimony of Yeshua when you do so; and even worse, you do so in order to uphold a carnal physical flesh minded understanding of Israel in clear opposition to both the Master Teacher Yeshua and the clear teachings of Paul who openly tells you who is Yhudi and what it means to be Yhudi. You therefore glory in the flesh and the persons of men while the Master plainly tells you that the flesh profits nothing. As for Elohim there are many different meanings of that word: even father Abraham is an Elohim by the Testimony of Messiah. Is father Abraham outside of time? I suppose he is now, eh?

Daqq I bow to the WORD... That's Jesus. John 5:39-41.

This is not a personal attack on you! I am sincere! This is about scripture.

How do you explain Acts 1:11-12 when Jesus is in post ressurection Body and it clearly says he will return? How do you skate around Zechariah 14:4?"

And for God's sake... literally... what does Rm. 8:9 say to you? These are concrete and untwistable. You have seen how ruthless I am about twisting scriptural integrity. I didn't want to be Cross ways of you, but look at the evidence... it's overwhelming!

Daqq,

I love you as my brother. But you yourself wouldn't want anyone to twist scripture. Thus, the battling isn't about a personal attack on you... it's an attack on alters. If Joel 3:2 says what it says, I believe it. You'll probably make fun of me for this... but I have childnlike faith in scripture! I studied hard to get here and I believe every word of scripture and refuse to doubt it. I use many tools to understand as much as possible, but Prayer and wittinessing has always sharpened scripture for me.

Daqq... seriously... you are calling the WORD scripture.

Daqq... no ignorant Jehovah's Witness garbage... THE WORD BECAME FLESH!

 

[daqq]

Where does it say in the Bible that we are to have faith in Christ crucified?

We are to have faith in God and Christ, it doesn't say in the Bible that we are to have faith in Christ crucified!

And there are many many verses that show that Jesus isn't God. But you all just bypass and ignore them to push your false Trinitarian doctrine.

There is one God, there is no such thing as a three in one God. That is never preached in the Bible, no God the son, and no trinity and no telling us that we have to believe in a triune God or to believe in a trinity to be saved.

We are to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

And Jesus Christ said this is life eternal to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent!

John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

And that is what daqq, I and others who listen to Christ Jesus believe

It is not something that comes from the jehovahs witnesses, it's the teaching of Jesus Christ and his apostles

There is one God and he's the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 8

But to us there is but.one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Yeah, that is a good point: it does not originate from JW's but rather the Apostles of Messiah.

 

[daqq]

Daqq I bow to the WORD... That's Jesus. John 5:39-41.

This is not a personal attack on you! I am sincere! This is about scripture.

How do you explain Acts 1:11-12 when Jesus is in post ressurection Body and it clearly says he will return? How do you skate around Zechariah 14:4?"

I have already explained this also many times, even to Jerry, but you and yours have a paradigm mindset to uphold. You are only willing to see things the way you already see them. HaNavi Nahum refutes your understanding; the clouds are the dust of the Father's feet, but then again how can this be shown to you when you say "Jesus is JHWH"? The Son is not the Father; these things are right there in front of you in the Gospel accounts and you refuse to see them, (and therefore trample the work of Messiah in his ministry and at Golgotha). The Father already stood over the mount of Olives, and HE SPOKE, and confirmed again His Son, and Jerry denied this also so as to uphold his historicism-futurism interpretation where unless he sees something with his own eyes of the flesh, according to how he himself determines it is supposed to be, then he will not believe it. No doubt you would also reject the same if I shared it here again because you have taken poetic prophetic writings and made them into literal carnal physical futuristic fantasies of world wide global destruction. If indeed you desire to know what I believe then you should start actually reading and digesting what I post.

And for God's sake... literally... what does Rm. 8:9 say to you? These are concrete and untwistable. You have seen how ruthless I am about twisting scriptural integrity. I didn't want to be Cross ways of you, but look at the evidence... it's overwhelming!

Daqq,

I love you as my brother. But you yourself wouldn't want anyone to twist scripture. Thus, the battling isn't about a personal attack on you... it's an attack on alters. If Joel 3:2 says what it says, I believe it. You'll probably make fun of me for this... but I have childnlike faith in scripture! I studied hard to get here and I believe every word of scripture and refuse to doubt it. I use many tools to understand as much as possible, but Prayer and wittinessing has always sharpened scripture for me.

Daqq... seriously... you are calling the WORD scripture.

Daqq... no ignorant Jehovah's Witness garbage... THE WORD BECAME FLESH!

I showed you how the Word became flesh in this very thread and although you thanked me you did not understand what I said in those posts.

 

[marhig]

I shy away from denouncing whole faith groups until one of theirs attacks me first. Then it is, that what they believe comes under the umbrella of proving why their attacks on myself, (almost always personal attacks), are false accusations and generally nothing more than slander. If their church dogma gets thrown by the wayside at the same time then perhaps they should have obeyed the commandments of the Master to begin with and should have treated others as they would like to be treated, eh? You know this, right? Judge not lest you be judged, right? So at the same time their false religion also gets trashed, so what? That is still a good thing in the long run because they are deceiving both themselves and others if they are not willing to bow to the Word just as Jerry Shugart is clearly not willing to do. But I do not often find JW's, Mormons, Unitarians, nor too many other what you might call "fringe" sects, attacking me personally. This is not face to face where I would no doubt turn the other cheek; but this is an internet forum board where if you turn the other cheek you get railroaded, slandered, lied about, and tossed aside as refuse. I do not see where I should not be allowed to defend both myself, and what I believe to be true, especially if and when I can do so by way of the scripture. As for your stance you have called what I believe a "doctrine of demons" and in my book you blaspheme the body of the faithful who are in Messiah and the clear Testimony of Yeshua when you do so; and even worse, you do so in order to uphold a carnal physical flesh minded understanding of Israel in clear opposition to both the Master Teacher Yeshua and the clear teachings of Paul who openly tells you who is Yhudi and what it means to be Yhudi. You therefore glory in the flesh and the persons of men while the Master plainly tells you that the flesh profits nothing. As for Elohim there are many different meanings of that word: even father Abraham is an Elohim by the Testimony of Messiah. Is father Abraham outside of time? I suppose he is now, eh?

Hi Daqq the pharasees also said that what Jesus preached was the doctrine of demons! So as I always say, we're in good company! You speak the truth, there is only one God and he is the father, and Jesus who is the Christ is his son.

And Jesus himself said that the father was his God as that he was the son of God!

Yet many here don't listen to him!

John 20

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 4

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Ephesians 1

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed.be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

We believe what Jesus and the apostles say, yet we are told we are wrong!

What you speak us the truth, and Jesus knew that once we bare witness to the truth we would suffer for his name's sake and be spoken evil of.

Matthew 5

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

[daqq]

Hi Daqq the pharasees also said that what Jesus preached was the doctrine of demons! So as I always say, we're in good company! You speak the truth, there is only one God and he is the father, and Jesus who is the Christ is his son.

And Jesus himself said that the father was his God as that he was the son of God!

Yet many here don't listen to him!

John 20

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 4

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Ephesians 1

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed.be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

We believe what Jesus and the apostles say, yet we are told we are wrong!

What you speak us the truth, and Jesus knew that once we bare witness to the truth we would suffer for his name's sake and be spoken evil of.

Matthew 5

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Amen, but I would just say be careful not to get into "persecution syndrome" mode just because others disagree with you and call you names, (even though what you say is true). And to the credit of Evil.Eye., whom I still consider my friend even though we disagree, he did not say to my face that I believe in a doctrine of demons but rather has a thread which pretty much spells that out, (which I avoided for reasons of peace).

 

[marhig]

Amen, but I would just say be careful not to get into "persecution syndrome" mode just because others disagree with you and call you names, (even though what you say is true). And to the credit of Evil.Eye., whom I still consider my friend even though we disagree, he did not say to my face that I believe in a doctrine of demons but rather has a thread which pretty much spells that out, (which I avoided for reasons of peace).

Ah right ok, from what you wrote, I thought EE was talking to you personally. I'm glad he wasn't

I don't believe in persecuting others daqq, but I will speak up for the truth. And I have noticed that many here call those who don't believe in the trinity as belonging to Satan and they say terrible things about them. And even if they don't say it often themselves, they like the posts of those who do, and also like the posts of those who persecute others who don't believe in a triune God. They also like posts and agree with those who hurl abuse at others, encouraging those who have a hardness and a very nasty tongue towards others to be abusive to others who could love God and Christ from their heart, all because they refuse to believe in their teachings which are false!

For example, just look at the Madist thread and you will see what I mean. We are treated as devil's because we listen to the word of Jesus, being told it's not for us and that we are only to listen to the apostle Paul. Thats not the truth, and neither is their false trinity teachings.

They don't know our hearts yet they judge us as satanic because we don't believe a they do. Yet we show them verse after verse from many chapters in the Bible to show that what we believe in is true.

This is persecution, and I have never done this to others, I am only flesh, who am I to condemn another to hell? They have become proud and self righteous, and I hope that they will let the love of God into their hearts and then they will produce the fruits of the spirit instead of a tongue of fire.

By the way, I've just read back through my post and I can't see why you would think that I was persecuting EE from what I wrote?

Anyway, I'm off to clean, speak to you soon

 

[daqq]

Ah right ok, from what you wrote, I thought EE was talking to you personally. I'm glad he wasn't

I don't believe in persecuting others daqq, but I will speak up for the truth. And I have noticed that many here call those who don't believe in the trinity as belonging to Satan and they say terrible things about them. And even if they don't say it often themselves, they like the posts of those who do, and also like the posts of those who persecute others who don't believe in a triune God. They also like posts and agree with those who hurl abuse at others, encouraging those who have a hardness and a very nasty tongue towards others to be abusive to others who could love God and Christ from their heart, all because they refuse to believe in their teachings which are false!

For example, just look at the Madist thread and you will see what I mean. We are treated as devil's because we listen to the word of Jesus, being told it's not for us and that we are only to listen to the apostle Paul. Thats not the truth, and neither is their false trinity teachings.

They don't know our hearts yet they judge us as satanic because we don't believe a they do. Yet we show them verse after verse from many chapters in the Bible to show that what we believe in is true.

This is persecution, and I have never done this to others, I am only flesh, who am I to condemn another to hell? They have become proud and self righteous, and I hope that they will let the love of God into their hearts and then they will produce the fruits of the spirit instead of a tongue of fire.

By the way, I've just read back through my post and I can't see why you would think that I was persecuting EE from what I wrote?

Anyway, I'm off to clean, speak to you soon

No doubt others can definitely see what goes on around forums such as this. Such people are only fooling themselves because it is really all about self-assurance: they know they are weak in what they believe because they know that the foundation for what they believe is itself weak. But as for EE I was not saying you were persecuting him; perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "persecution syndrome", that is to say, be careful not to go around imagining yourself as "the persecuted" just because people call you names and blaspheme what and whom you believe, (Messiah and his Testimony). That really is not "persecution" but it sure feels good to tell ourselves that such is the case. However that will not convince anyone of anything other than that you might just be feeling sorry for yourself, (again, even though what you have said is true). I simply meant not to take it as such but to see it for what it truly is: people with a lack of confidence in what they believe who feel the need to lash out because you may have offended them to the very core of what they believe to be true. But then I also understand, as you have no doubt seen elsewhere, there are others who label everyone who disagrees with them as satanic devil's children and viper's offspring: that type I find more comical than anything else, once in a while it is worth it just to flyby and poke 'em with a stick and watch the flame war that ensues, (hehe). I have learned not to even take those kind seriously or personally because to them everyone outside of their sphere is the devil.