The Christian Life

[JudgeRightly]

I obeyed to become a child of God.

You are trying to make 'reward' a bad word.

Do you want to go against God?

So your answer is yes, you do work for a reward.

God says He rewards those who have faith, faith that is alive with obedience.

Hebrews 11:6 But where there is no faith it is impossible truly to please Him; for the man who draws near to God must believe that there is a God and that He proves Himself a rewarder of those who earnestly try to find Him.

GT, Your works will not be accounted to you for righteousness, but as DEBT.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the L ord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-8&version=NKJV

What does this say:

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.

Work, not to receive a reward, but because a reward (inheritance) has already been guaranteed to us, not because we worked, but because we believe.

Romans 2:6 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

This is what happens when you take things out of context. That verse is talking about wicked people, not the righteous.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; - Romans 2:5-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:5-9&version=NKJV

2 John 1:8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Who is John talking to here?

The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, - 2 John 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2John1:1&version=NKJV

The "elect lady" is Israel, and her children are the children of Israel. Now, I'm pretty sure you're not of Israel.

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Revelation 22:12
[ Epilogue: Invitation and Warning ] “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

Revelation is for Israel. Israel (under the second covenant given to Abraham) is under the covenant of works, of circumcision, of obedience.

Now let's see if you judge rightly.

Tell me, JR, do you want to keep kicking against the goad?

Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground; and I heard a voice which said to me in Hebrew, "'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? You are finding it painful to kick against the ox-goad.'

Might I suggest that the Bible is not wrong in it's statements, but instead that your theology is wrong?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Notice that JudgeRightly refuses to answer questions.

I give scripture that plainly says we will receive a reward for obeying Jesus.

JudgeRightly refuses to engage in the discussion about God's Truth, he is snared.

I think you're jumping the gun saying I'm refusing to answer, because I just did.

 

[JudgeRightly]

By the way... This verse?

Tell me, JR, do you want to keep kicking against the goad?

Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground; and I heard a voice which said to me in Hebrew, "'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? You are finding it painful to kick against the ox-goad.'

“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ - Acts 26:12-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts26:12-14&version=NKJV

Paul is simply recounting his conversion. He's talking specifically about himself and the men with him on his way to Damascus. So once again, you're taking a verse out of context, but that's pretty much normal for what you do.

 

[God's Truth]

By the way... This verse?



“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ - Acts 26:12-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts26:12-14&version=NKJV

Paul is simply recounting his conversion. He's talking specifically about himself and the men with him on his way to Damascus. So once again, you're taking a verse out of context, but that's pretty much normal for what you do.

Do you really think that you needed to tell me what the scripture says after I said it to you?

You are going against Jesus that is why I used that scripture for you.

You say Jesus taught the old law.

You refuse the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

I think you're jumping the gun saying I'm refusing to answer, because I just did.

We receive a reward and I gave you many scriptures that say that.

I hope you apologized and thanked me for showing you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you really think that you needed to tell me what the scripture says after I said it to you?

Yes, because you clearly don't understand the context in which what was said was said.

You are going against Jesus that is why I used that scripture for you.

And I just showed you how you're wrong.

You say Jesus taught the old law.

There is only Law and Grace.

You want to put Christians under Law.
I tell you we are not under law, but under grace.
You want Christians to obey the law for a reward.
I tell you that we are guaranteed a reward.

But before I tell you why it is not wrong to obey, but that you are indeed wrong, I want to see your reply to my above post.

You refuse the truth.

I'm not the one who uses scripture out of context, GT.

We receive a reward and I gave you many scriptures that say that.

GT, How do you not understand that all of Paul's writings say that we have already been justified, that a reward will be given to us not because of works we have done, but because we had faith? How do you not get that doing works to receive a reward will only be counted as debt?

I want to continue my argument, but first you must read and respond to this and my previous post. Until then, I cannot show you why obedience is never wrong, but your theology on it is.

I hope you apologized and thanked me for showing you.

See what obedience to the law does? It puffs you up. You boast in your obedience to a law.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

 

[God's Truth]

=

So your answer is yes, you do work for a reward.

What does Jesus say?
God says He rewards those who have faith, faith that is alive with obedience.

Hebrews 11:6 But where there is no faith it is impossible truly to please Him; for the man who draws near to God must believe that there is a God and that He proves Himself a rewarder of those who earnestly try to find Him.

GT, Your works will not be accounted to you for righteousness, but as DEBT.

No, the debt is concerning cleaning ourselves with the purification works.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

That is about the ceremonial work of CIRCUMCISION.

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the L ord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:1-8http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

The works spoken of ARE THE PURIFICATION/CEREMONIAL WORKS.
Think about it more. You have been taught wrong.

Work, not to receive a reward, but because a reward (inheritance) has already been guaranteed to us, not because we worked, but because we believe.

It is given TO THOSE WHO OBEY.

Romans 2:6 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
This is what happens when you take things out of context. That verse is talking about wicked people, not the righteous.

The scripture is about EVERYONE. The scriptures plainly say NO FAVORITSM.

The "elect lady" is Israel, and her children are the children of Israel. Now, I'm pretty sure you're not of Israel.

All saved are Israel.
There is no difference, the written Word of God says, but you keep going against Him.

Revelation is for Israel. Israel (under the second covenant given to Abraham) is under the covenant of works, of circumcision, of obedience.

The old law with the ceremonial/purification works are gone, and Jesus was not speaking about people doing those works---JESUS FULFILLED THOSE WORKS.
How do you ever allow yourself to say such wicked things? I even gave you scripture from Paul telling us how to receive the reward.
Jesus’ blood cleans us and he circumcises our hearts and all those special days were about him but you say Jesus was telling the Jews to keep doing the ceremonial works to earn the reward of eternal life! You make Jesus as one going against himself!

Might I suggest that the Bible is not wrong in it's statements, but instead that your theology is wrong?

You are the one who is wrong.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Wasn't done yet, sorry.

 

[JudgeRightly]

=

What does Jesus say?

To the Jews? He says obey and you will be rewarded.
But after they rejected Him, He said to the world through Paul to believe, and you will be rewarded.

God says He rewards those who have faith, faith that is alive with obedience.

You're going to have to show explicit verses directed AT THE GENTILES AFTER Israel rejected their Messiah that say "faith + works" (and yes, both those conditions must be met) for you to have any standing in this discussion.

Hebrews 11:6 But where there is no faith it is impossible truly to please Him; for the man who draws near to God must believe that there is a God and that He proves Himself a rewarder of those who earnestly try to find Him.

The ENTIRE Eleventh chapter of Hebrews is called "The Hall of Faith" for a reason, GT. It's because every single person in it were justified by faith only.

No, the debt is concerning cleaning ourselves with the purification works.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. - Romans 4:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-4&version=NKJV

The passage does not discern between ceremonial or purification works. It simply says works.

That is about the ceremonial work of CIRCUMCISION.

It is not. You cannot prove that it is.

The works spoken of ARE THE PURIFICATION/CEREMONIAL WORKS.
Think about it more. You have been taught wrong.

Again, it DOES NOT SAY purification or ceremonial works. It simply says works.

It is given TO THOSE WHO OBEY.

Again, GT, go read Romans. You've got it all wrong. Those who obey the law do it for a reward. But that's not what Christians are called to do. Christians are called to love. That love is what brings about obedience to Christ. Not the promise of a reward. Love.

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:34-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:34-40&version=NKJV

The scripture is about EVERYONE. The scriptures plainly say NO FAVORITSM.

Seeing as you deleted from my post quote the full sentence that the verse you are talking about is a part of, let me post the full paragraph, so that you may read it.

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.For there is no partiality with God. - Romans 2:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:1-11&version=NKJV

All saved are Israel.
There is no difference, the written Word of God says, but you keep going against Him.

Tell me, GT, will you be ruled by one of the twelve apostles in the Millennial Kingdom? Or will Paul rule over you?

If you answered yes to either of those questions, you need help.

Christians will not be ruled by the twelve, because they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, which you are not a part of (unless you really are a Jew, in which case I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Christians will not be ruled by Paul, because Jesus is our King, not any man.

The old law with the ceremonial/purification works are gone, and Jesus was not speaking about people doing those works---JESUS FULFILLED THOSE WORKS.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - Romans 3:27-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:27-31&version=NKJV

The law is not gone, GT. It's still at work.

How do you ever allow yourself to say such wicked things? I even gave you scripture from Paul telling us how to receive the reward.
Jesus’ blood cleans us and he circumcises our hearts and all those special days were about him but you say Jesus was telling the Jews to keep doing the ceremonial works to earn the reward of eternal life! You make Jesus as one going against himself!

Consider this:

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

You are the one who is wrong.

I obey because I love God and I love my fellow man, not because I want to receive any reward, because I know that I am already guaranteed my reward because of my faith in Him.

THAT, GT, is the difference between law and grace.

 

[jamie]

I obey because I love God and I love my fellow man, not because I want to receive any reward, because I know that I am already guaranteed my reward because of my faith in Him.

Salvation is not a reward, salvation is a gift through faith. Faith demonstrates belief, it is evidence of things not seen. The only way others see your belief is by what you say and do.

Those who are faithful will be rewarded for what they say and do with a position in the kingdom.

"And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability and immediately he went on a journey." (Matthew 25:15)

 

[God's Truth]

Salvation is not a reward, salvation is a gift through faith. Faith demonstrates belief, it is evidence of things not seen. The only way others see your belief is by what you say and do.

Those who are faithful will be rewarded for what they say and do with a position in the kingdom.

"And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability and immediately he went on a journey." (Matthew 25:15)

No.

The reward is an inheritance.

Colossians 3:24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

The reward is the promise of the inheritance of eternal life.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In case you still are not sure the inheritance is eternal life, which is our reward, read and study these scriptures, there should be no more doubt after reading them.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25[ The Parable of the Good Samaritan ] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”


The REWARD is the PROMISE, of an INHERITANCE, and the INHERITANCE is ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[God's Truth]

Salvation is not a reward, salvation is a gift through faith. Faith demonstrates belief, it is evidence of things not seen. The only way others see your belief is by what you say and do.

Those who are faithful will be rewarded for what they say and do with a position in the kingdom.

"And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability and immediately he went on a journey." (Matthew 25:15)

Jamie, do you really want to use that scripture to defend your beliefs? hahahaaaaaa

What happened to one of the men with the talents? Go ahead and explain it.

 

[God's Truth]

In case Jaime wants to write me off, here is the scripture he/she thinks he/she rebuked me with:

24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’



What happened to the REWARD that IS NOT SALVATION, AS YOU say?

What happened to that man?

Let's talk about it.

 

[jamie]

What happened to the REWARD that IS NOT SALVATION, AS YOU say?

Salvation is a gift, our reward depends on our work.

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)

 

[God's Truth]

Salvation is a gift, our reward depends on our work.

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)

Are you blind? I just showed you that Jesus said that person would BE THROWN into HELL.

Pay attention or stop trying to be a teacher.

You not only used a scripture earlier that proves you wrong, you did not even consider the scriptures I gave you you.

 

[God's Truth]

Jaime, you are the one who said eternal life is NOT the reward. I gave you MANY scriptures that say eternal life is the reward. You used scripture that rebukes you. Why don't you tell me if this man merely lost some reward that is NOT eternal life, or did he lose eternal life as a reward?


28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[God's Truth]

To the Jews? He says obey and you will be rewarded.
But after they rejected Him, He said to the world through Paul to believe, and you will be rewarded.

You say through Paul. Show that scripture.
Paul says believers will be rewarded for the good or punished for the bad, makes no difference and there is no favoritism.

You're going to have to show explicit verses directed AT THE GENTILES AFTER Israel rejected their Messiah that say "faith + works" (and yes, both those conditions must be met) for you to have any standing in this discussion.

1 Corinthians 10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:25 correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

The ENTIRE Eleventh chapter of Hebrews is called "The Hall of Faith" for a reason, GT. It's because every single person in it were justified by faith only.

The people used to have to justify themselves by cleaning themselves. Faith that Jesus’ blood cleans us is now what justifies us. Go study about that some more. You are blind merely believing what your choice teachers say.

 

[God's Truth]

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. - Romans 4:1-4http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

The passage does not discern between ceremonial or purification works. It simply says works.

It is about circumcision. Paul even SAYS was it BEFORE CIRCUMCISION or after.

 

[God's Truth]

Again, GT, go read Romans. You've got it all wrong. Those who obey the law do it for a reward. But that's not what Christians are called to do. Christians are called to love. That love is what brings about obedience to Christ. Not the promise of a reward. Love.

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:34-40http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

You can’t love without obeying.

Jesus wanted traveling ministers.

He loved his money more than he loved Jesus.