Hebrews was written to Hebrews. Thanks.
ECT the charade about 'saved' in Rom 11
- Thread starter Interplanner
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Hebrews was written to Hebrews. Thanks.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I asked that rhetorically of course, but I don't think you know what that means.
Please interpret 11:14, however, is not rhetorical. I really don't know what you think it means.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
" And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).
When we look at the "covenant" spoken about in this passage we can know what "saved" means:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-33).
Everyone out of the house of Judah and the house of Israel will know the Lord and will have their sins forgiven. Also, the Lord will remember their sins no longer.
It is evident to anyone with an open mind that the salvation being spoken of here is the salvation of the soul.
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Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
It began 2000 years ago.
and the subject of Rom ch 11 is Israel, not the Jews.
LA
It began 2000 years ago.
and the subject of Rom ch 11 is Israel, not the Jews.
LA
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What proof of that can you give?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Paul was quoting that historically! That's the proof. Sins were taken away in the same language as John the Baptist. He came to Zion. The believers turned from transgressions. The new covenant was set in place.
Isaiah 59:20 is the verse used by Paul in Romans ch 11.but mistranslated in the KJV.
Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Jacob was repenting from Acts 2 onward.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
The reference to 'blinded' here can help us see that there will be partial blindness until the end of time as said in 11:26. Partial not whole. That's why the Israel in all Israel is not the ethne. And why 'saved' is not a theocracy with David in the land.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
" And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).
When we look at the "covenant" spoken about in this passage we can know what "saved" means:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-33).
Everyone out of the house of Judah and the house of Israel will know the Lord and will have their sins forgiven. Also, the Lord will remember their sins no longer.
It is evident to anyone with an open mind that the salvation being spoken of here is the salvation of the soul.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This passage speaks of the time when "all Israel shall be saved" and it didn't happen 2000 years ago:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
You are delusional if you think that all of those from the house of Israel and the house of Judah knew the Lord and had their sins forgiven 2000 years ago.
Interplanner
Well-known member
This is a prediction of manner not of an event. It begins with the Greek 'kai houtos' which is: in this way, in this manner--of being partial blind. Ie, while the ethne is partially blind, everyone who is in "Israel" (the new) will be saved.
I don't say that the completion of that happened in the Gospel, but that the quote from isaiah is about the Gospel. THe Redeemer came. Sins debt was taken away in the Gospel. It is the new covenant. The believers left the wicked ways of Judaism. There is no delusion about that; it is manifest supported by many NT passages.
'Saved' here is no a Davidic theocracy. It never is in Romans, and no where in the NT that I know of. It is justification from the debt of sins.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This is speaking about some "new" Israel but instead the Israel of the OT:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Their "fathers" broke the covenant and their "fathers" were the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And since their fathers were the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so are all of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future.
And all of them will know the Lord, from the least of them unto the greatest of them. And all of them willhave their sins forgiven.
This prophecy has never been fulfilled but it will, according to Paul:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).
Since you have no place for this in your eschatology you must somehow pervert the plain words found in these two passages from the Bible.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jerry, you are weird about this. When it is two passages in isaiah, you go to Jeremiah. when Jeremiah is quoted and explained in Hebrews, you say we are supposed to listen to JERRY SHUGART. No can do. The things is fulfilled now in the mission of God to the nations, and was never meant in your literal sense. Crass literalism is how the Pharisees thought, as you can see in the book of John 20x.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you quote me and then just ignore every single thing which I said? It is obvious that you cannot refute a single thing which I said. If you can refute what I said then now is your chance. Here is what I said again:
This is speaking about some "new" Israel but instead the Israel of the OT:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Their "fathers" broke the covenant and their "fathers" were the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And since their fathers were the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so are all of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future.
And all of them will know the Lord, from the least of them unto the greatest of them. And all of them will have their sins forgiven.
This prophecy has never been fulfilled but it will be, according to Paul:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).
Since you have no place for this in your eschatology you must somehow pervert the plain words found in these two passages from the Bible. And so far you have not been able to give any evidence that anything which I have said is in error.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I ignore what you say because the first thing to look for is how Hebrews uses this and you are not doing that. In Hebrews it is all present tense. The future has broken in to the present. Besides Hebrews, it is obvious that the new covenant is now in 2 Cor 3-5 BECAUSE WE ARE AT WORK IN IT!!!
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are under the false impression that this verse is about the New "Covenant" but it is not:
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor.3:6; KJV).
The Lord's last will and testament is the "gospel." John Frahm wrote that "the use of the word 'testament' confesses more fully the Gospel promises and cross-focused content of Christ's person and work that is distributed Sunday after Sunday in the Divine Service" [emphasis added] (Frahm, The Lord's Supper as Christ's Last Will and Testament).
In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we read the following remarks on 2 Corinthians 3:6:
"spirit giveth life--The spirit of the Gospel when brought home to the heart by the Holy Spirit, gives new spiritual life to a man (Ro 6:4, 11)" [emphasis added] (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Corinthians 3:6).
I know how Pastors minister the gospel but tell me how anyone is to minister the "New Covenant."
You always ignore what I write because you are unable to prove that anything which I say is in error.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I don't know what you think you accomplished with those quotes, but anyone who expresses the Gospel is doing the work of the New Covenant. You are being a theolog and it doesn't work. It is obvious in the passage that any believer who says the Gospel correctly to others is a worker.
I don't ignore anything you write (as I just showed). You however, cannot survive what Hebrews is saying about Israel. Did I mention that the title was HEBREWS?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle: