ECT The Broken Record of MAD

[Interplanner]

Will you not answer my question?

What determined the beginning of the present dispensation of grace?

Your questions and conceptions of it are wrong. There always was grace. The problem was stripping away the 'elements of the world' of Judaism. Post-exile Pharisaism made it manifest in the worst possible form. As he gained victories over it, Paul was able to refer to the present age of grace, to his own and others realizing that that is what was there the whole time.

Don't limit yourself by your familiar questions.

 

[patrick jane]

Yes, I am MAD.

Can you answer my question,patrick jane?

What do you think determined when it began?

I think it began in Acts 9

 

[Interplanner]

I guess you could say Lk 6's 'today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing' but that doesn't mean there wasn't grace their earlier or change that it was a matter of undoing Judaism.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your questions and conceptions of it are wrong. There always was grace.

I never said otherwise.

Paul was able to refer to the present age of grace, to his own and others realizing that that is what was there the whole time.

Paul never referred to an "age" of grace. Where did you get that? Instead he referred to the "dispensation of the grace of God." Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace."

Paul was the first to preach that gospel and hebegan to preach it during the Mid-Acts period of time. Therefore, the present dispensation of grace did not begin until Mid-Acts!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think it began in Acts 9

I did not ask you WHEN it began but instead this:

What do you think determined when it began?

 

[patrick jane]

I did not ask you WHEN it began but instead this:

What do you think determined when it began?

Unbelief

 

[Interplanner]

I never said otherwise.



Paul never referred to an "age" of grace. Where did you get that? Instead he referred to the "dispensation of the grace of God." Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace."

Paul was the first to preach that gospel and hebegan to preach it during the Mid-Acts period of time. Therefore, the present dispensation of grace did not begin until Mid-Acts!

Total bogus, Jerry.

Christ already said the day of salvation had come. He preached grace all over the place.

A dispensation has to happen in human time, so it is OK to say it is an age; the question I ask is whether this is just describing the un-doing of the stronghold of the 'weak and miserable principles of Judaism'.

So it was there way before Paul and there was not another gospel being kicked around as another plan.

The grace of God is in Peter's first sermon and the early community of believers was said to be graced by 'great grace was upon them all.'

You've gone to so much effort missing the obvious.

 

[patrick jane]

Total bogus, Jerry.

Christ already said the day of salvation had come. He preached grace all over the place.

A dispensation has to happen in human time, so it is OK to say it is an age; the question I ask is whether this is just describing the un-doing of the stronghold of the 'weak and miserable principles of Judaism'.

So it was there way before Paul and there was not another gospel being kicked around as another plan.

The grace of God is in Peter's first sermon and the early community of believers was said to be graced by 'great grace was upon them all.'

You've gone to so much effort missing the obvious.

you have wasted your whole life -

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A dispensation has to happen in human time, so it is OK to say it is an age;

Totally bogus, my friend. A "dispensation" is a stewardshio so it is impossible that it is an age. You said that Paul referred to an "age of grace" so please quote him using those words.

You've gone to so much effort missing the obvious.

I await your quote from the pen of Paul where, according to you, he refers to an "age of grace." Then we will see who is the one who is missing the obvious.

 

[dodge]

The proponents of MAD (Mid-Acts Dispensationalism) merely assert that the present "dispensation of the grace of God" began during the Mid-Acts period of time.

What do you think determined when it began?

Thanks!

It began when Jesus walked out of the grave !

 

[Danoh]

Unbelief

Time to put up a study, PJ.

Study it out; don't be like what's his name...the so called Ignorer :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

Totally bogus, my friend. A "dispensation" is a stewardshio so it is impossible that it is an age. You said that Paul referred to an "age of grace" so please quote him using those words.



I await your quote from the pen of Paul where, according to you, he refers to an "age of grace." Then we will see who is the one who is missing the obvious.

2 Cor 6:1
Gal 4

 

[Jerry Shugart]

2 Cor 6:1
Gal 4

Of course you were unable to quote Paul using the term "age of grace" because he never used that term. You just made it up.

 

[Interplanner]

Of course you were unable to quote Paul using the term "age of grace" because he never used that term. You just made it up.

OK, so just ignore 2 Cor 6:1-2 etc, and the others like it. You framed the question as though these people were theologs who operated like people writing IRS code and formed acronyms and 'age of grace' could only be expressed with only one set of words forever. You are quite wrong. Likewise Lk 4:19.

The reason for referring to Gal 4 was that it is one of the few places where we get a before and after explanation of history up to Paul's present. There are references to ages in Eph 1, but it is not quite like this because the previous age is said to have been an age of childhood, whereas now we are in an age of maturity. But anyone familiar with the Bible can go to Isaiah or elsewhere in the prophets and find 'mature' ethical statements. Is 58 for ex., is about a brand new type of fast--abstaining from evil. Last I checked Isaiah was before the NT and Paul, right?

 

[Right Divider]

Saved but not futurist about Israel. Please update your files.

... and yet you think that you can lose your salvation if you don't continue ....

You're a complete mess IP.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They are not even consistent with their own theology. They say "the Gentiles aren't under a covenant", but when you point to 2 Corinthians 3:6 I can't get an answer.

"who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

You are using a faulty translation. Here is the correct one:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor.3:6; KJV).

That is your answer so you can no longer say that you haven't been given an answer. I can tell you how members of the Body can be ministers of the New Testament but how can those same people be ministers of the New Covenant?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

OK, so just ignore 2 Cor 6:1-2 etc, and the others like it.

You are delusional if you think that Paul used the term "age of grace" in that verse or in any others because he did not.

 

[musterion]

Of course you were unable to quote Paul using the term "age of grace" because he never used that term. You just made it up.

He does that for the same reason Tet and all anti-disps do it...they try to lock the definition into a set, defined period of time purely for their own purposes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He does that for the same reason Tet and all anti-disps do it...they try to lock the definition into a set, defined period of time purely for their own purposes.

Since Paul never used the term "age of grace" and Interplanner knows that he cannot quote Paul using that term why in the world does he continue to insist that Paul used that term?

I am puzzled!

 

[Interplanner]

He does that for the same reason Tet and all anti-disps do it...they try to lock the definition into a set, defined period of time purely for their own purposes.

Rather the opposite: I was the one saying grace was there all the time; the problem was constriction of it by Judaism, and after all, the Christian Gospel was initially preached at an entrenched Judaism, wasn't it?

But while grace was there all the time, Christ and Paul are trying to get people to administer it in a very different way from that of the law. As different as the two forgiven people in Mt 18's parable. One assumes debt is to be paid back. The other understands cancellation. They become two very different people. The dispensation of grace that Paul realized he was working in was the latter.