The Bible and Torah

[Jacob]

I am talking about the fact that today's Judaism still deny Christ, No?

I don't, and I am a Jew, of Israel, a convert, a proselyte, of Judaism. I see no problem with accepting the Messiah as Yeshua who was to come and He did! That is not all. He is coming again!

Today's Catholics still have its OT Bible based off the Septuagint, No?

I don't know what you are talking about. I am not a Catholic.

Answer the above 2 questions!

 

[Hawkins]

I don't, and I am a Jew, of Israel, a convert, a proselyte, of Judaism. I see no problem with accepting the Messiah as Yeshua who was to come and He did! That is not all. He is coming again!
I don't know what you are talking about. I am not a Catholic.

I am not talking about you. I am talking about today's Judaism we generally regard it as the representative of Jews. It's perspective of generalization. I am not talking about each and every Jew denies Christ.

Catholics' OT Bible is based off Septuagint which contains more books than the Jewish OT Bible.

 

[Jacob]

I am not talking about you. I am talking about today's Judaism we generally regard them as the representative of Jews. It's perspective of generalization. I am not talking about each and every Jew denies Christ.

Catholics' OT Bible is based off Septuagint which contains more books then the Jewish OT Bible.

Judaism had an expectation of a coming Messiah, and Yeshua did come. This is a part of Judaism, the Messiah. Without the Messiah, we do not have true Judaism.

By Jewish OT Bible what do you mean? There is the Torah or the Law, the Five Books of Moses. There is the TaNaKh, which has 24 books. The link provided in this thread says the Mikra is the textual basis for the Christian Old Testament. My understanding is that the TaNaKh and the Old Testament have the same content, but that the books are arranged and ordered differently. The different number of books (39 in the Christian Old Testament) is inconsequential. That is, it is the same content. Do you mean something different? I know you are referring to the Septuagint, but it is not Catholic.

 

[Hawkins]

Judaism had an expectation of a coming Messiah, and Yeshua did come. This is a part of Judaism, the Messiah. Without the Messiah, we do not have true Judaism.

So today's Judaism denies Christ, yes or no? That's my question for you.

By Jewish OT Bible what do you mean? There is the Torah or the Law, the Five Books of Moses. There is the TaNaKh, which has 24 books. The link provided in this thread says the Mikra is the textual basis for the Christian Old Testament. My understanding is that the TaNaKh and the Old Testament have the same content, but that the books are arranged and ordered differently. The different number of books (39 in the Christian Old Testament) is inconsequential. That is, it is the same content. Do you mean something different? I know you are referring to the Septuagint, but it is not Catholic.

In English, the Jewish OT Bible contains the Law, the Prophets and the Writings. The Catholics Bible contains more books than these. The extra books are generally referred to as the Apocrypha.

 

[Jacob]

So today's Judaism denies Christ, yes or no? That's my question for you.

No. An individual decision to reject or deny Christ, whether Jew or Gentile/Greek, is not representative of Judaism as a whole. And there is nothing saying that an individual who does this cannot repent and be made right with God, accepting Yeshua as the Messiah he did not formerly know or recognize.

In English, the Jewish OT Bible contains the Law, the Prophets and the Writings. The Catholics Bible contains more books than these. The extra books are generally referred to as the Apocrypha.

What do you mean by Jewish OT Bible? The OT (Old Testament) is the 39 books of the Christian Bible. That is what people call these books collectively, whether they use the term Old Testament Canon or not. However, it is not necessary, and adds a label where it is not needed. Still, I do not understand the words Old Covenant or Old Testament used this way, labeling 39 books or the first 39 books of the (Christian) Bible. The Bible has 66 books, whether the terms Old Covenant / Old Testament and New Covenant / New Testament are used of Scripture, even (or, and) whether Old Covenant refers to 5 books or 39.

 

[TweetyBird]

The Mishna is called the Oral Torah. It was before the Talmud. With the Gemara, we have the Talmud. So the Talmud has the Mishna and the Gemara.

The Talmud is the oral Torah.

The word is used in the Psalms and elsewhere.
The way you are using it it is more than just the Talmud, but everything that is a part of Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism. When a person uses the word Torah, when a Jew uses the word, he means either the written Torah (Moses) or both the written Torah and the oral Torah. Seldom does a person mean only the oral Torah. But to say Torah doesn't necessarily mean the written Torah, for both the written Torah and the oral Torah are Torah. It is all the Torah. But this is not how I was using the term. I am a Jew, though a convert. And I have not studied all of the Mishna. I do know about it. I would like to study the Mishna before the Gemara. I have read either part of the Mishna or part of the Gemara before. I understand that this is the Talmud, but I forget if I understood I was reading Mishna, Gemara, or Talmud.I believe you are challenging me about my knowledge of the Talmud. Rather, we ought to accept that the first five books are called the Torah, independent of the the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism.
I understand the Ten Commandments to be the covenant God made with Israel. They are found in the written Torah different from that they were written on tablets of stone, but the same commandments. This is not the covenant in its entirety. These are not the only commandments given to Israel. The Torah has 613 commands or commandments. These have been counted. There are five books in the Torah. They are Bereshit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, Devarim. These are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The word Torah means Law. This is the Law or the Pentateuch. It is the Law, the Law of Moses, the Five Books of Moses. These are the first five books of the TaNaKh, the Hebrew Bible. They are the Jewish Bible. And they are the first five books of the Bible, even the Christian Bible.

I have already quoted to you what Rabbinic Judaism considers "Torah". There is no such thing as a "Jewish Bible". The Hebrew Bible simply refers to its existence in Hebrew as the Masoretic manuscript in actual Hebrew, dated at about 1000AD. The word "TaNaKh" does not appear in the Bible. It is an acronym.

The 613 were a decided number by the Talmudic Rabbis. It is not the actual number of commandments given to Israel.

The word "towrah" does not always mean the Mosaic Law.

The covenant of Israel was not just the 10 commandments.

The "Jewish Bible" is no different than the "Christian Bible". They both contain the exact same books of the OT. I do not know why you call it the "Jewish Bible". I know of no Jewish person who calls it that.

I have nothing against anything Rabbinic, or Rabbinical. The word Torah means a lot. But the first thing it means (aside from its definition) is the first five books of the Bible (also, Jewish Bible, Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible) or the Five Books of Moses, also called the Law. This is the Written Torah. It is the Torah. Later we have what is called the Oral Torah, but it was written down. Then we just need to know if the Oral Torah was an Oral tradition that goes back to Moses.

The Rabbinic system is Christ denying aka rejects Christ, denigrates Him and tramples His sacrifice under their feet. That should bother you. The fact that it doesn't is very troubling.

The oral Torah does not go back to Moses. It is Rabbinic based in tradition and myth.

The written Torah in Judaism/Rabbinic Talmudism is not only the first five books, but includes the commentaries/rulings/interpretations of the Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, Zohar, Toledot, etc.

 

[Jacob]

The Talmud is the oral Torah.



I have already quoted to you what Rabbinic Judaism considers "Torah". There is no such thing as a "Jewish Bible". The Hebrew Bible simply refers to its existence in Hebrew as the Masoretic manuscript in actual Hebrew, dated at about 1000AD. The word "TaNaKh" does not appear in the Bible. It is an acronym.



The oral Torah does not go back to Moses. It is Rabbinic based in tradition and myth.

The written Torah in Judaism/Rabbinic Talmudism is not only the first five books, but includes the commentaries/rulings/interpretations of the Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, Zohar, Toledot, etc.

These are all written, but with the Talmud you say it is the Oral Torah while it was the Mishna that is the Oral Torah. Do you mean the Gemara is the Oral Torah?

Does the Hebrew Bible refer to the language or the people the Hebrews that live by it. It is their Bible. More than the Prophets or the Writings. We begin with Torah, whether you call it the Jewish Bible or not. Is the Pentateuch the Jewish Bible?

Do you call the first five books the Law?

The word Torah means Law or instruction.

Have you heard of the Law of Moses? What is it?

The Ten Commandments are not Moses' Law. They are found in the Torah written down in addition to their being written by God on tablets of stone, at least twice.

I understand you are saying the word TaNaKh is an acronym. That may be one acceptable word in reference to what it is or to refer to what this word is. The T stands for Torah. This is the first five books. I believe you said you found this word in the Talmud. I don't know where. However, right or wrong this is not necessarily wrong whether it existed before that. Certainly the Torah by the name Torah, the written Torah, was before the designation or name for scripture, the TaNaKh or just TaNaKh. Torah means instruction. It is more than the first five books of the Bible. But the first five books of the Bible are called the Torah.

Was the Torah originally oral or was it originally written? Was there an oral Torah at the same time as before or after the written Torah (the Torah was written as we know it today, from Bereshit to Devarim). Did Moses write the Torah? In addition to the Ten Commandments Moses wrote something down. The first five books of the Bible are attributed to Moses, though his death is recorded at the end of Devarim.

 

[TweetyBird]

Does the Hebrew Bible refer to the language or the people the Hebrews that live by it. It is their Bible. More than the Prophets or the Writings. We begin with Torah, whether you call it the Jewish Bible or not. Is the Pentateuch the Jewish Bible?

The Bible does not belong to the Jewish people. The Bible belongs to all who call Jesus Christ their Savior and Lord, regardless if they are Jew or Gentile.

Do you call the first five books the Law?

No.

The word Torah means Law or instruction.

Correct.

Have you heard of the Law of Moses? What is it?

The Old Covenant Law.

The Ten Commandments are not Moses' Law.

Yes, it is called the Moses' Law.

Joshua 8:32
And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Was the Torah originally oral or was it originally written? Was there an oral Torah at the same time as before or after the written Torah (the Torah was written as we know it today, from Bereshit to Devarim). Did Moses write the Torah? In addition to the Ten Commandments Moses wrote something down. The first five books of the Bible are attributed to Moses, though his death is recorded at the end of Devarim.

There was no oral Torah, not ever, never. All that God instructed to Moses was written down.

Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exodus 24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Deuteronomy 30:10
if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


Deuteronomy 27:3
and thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee.

Deuteronomy 28:58
If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;


Deuteronomy 30:10
if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Joshua 23:6
Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Deut 17
18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: 19 and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

Deuteronomy 31:11
when all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

Joshua 8:34
And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

 

[Jacob]

TweetyBird,

The Mishna is the Oral Torah. If you say the Talmud is the Oral Torah, or that the Oral Torah is the Talmud and more, do you mean the Gemara or the Mishna and the Gemara?

If the Mishna is the Oral Torah before ever the Gemara, then whether or not a person calls the Gemara or the Talmud the Oral Torah before acknowledging the Mishna as the Oral Torah is there, if the Mishna was the Oral Torah first or if the Oral Torah is the Mishna whether that is all there is to it or not.

Do you believe that the Jewish Library contains the Written Torah and the Oral Torah? The Oral Torah or Oral Tradition existed before the Mishna, but it is the Mishna that is called the Oral Torah in terms of the Jewish Library, and maybe the rest of the Jewish Library from Gemara and therefore Talmud (the Mishna and the Gemara make up or form the Talmud) to the others (to be determined or already determined in the minds of some, accepting it all and as Rabbinic or to eventually be acknowledged by those who are Rabbinic). Then was there anything Rabbinic before Paul was taught by Gamaliel? If even this is referred to as Rabbinic or a Rabbinic School of thought existing even before this. Many say Judaism is a later development (with the Rabbinics?).

 

[Jacob]

The Bible does not belong to the Jewish people. The Bible belongs to all who call Jesus Christ their Savior and Lord, regardless if they are Jew or Gentile.



No.



Correct.



The Old Covenant Law.



Yes, it is called the Moses' Law.

Joshua 8:32
And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.




There was no oral Torah, not ever, never. All that God instructed to Moses was written down.

Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exodus 24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Deuteronomy 30:10
if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


Deuteronomy 27:3
and thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee.

Deuteronomy 28:58
If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;


Deuteronomy 30:10
if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Joshua 23:6
Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Deut 17
18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: 19 and it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

Deuteronomy 31:11
when all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

Joshua 8:34
And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

The question is if the book of the law is the Torah.

When you refer to Moses' Law, do you recognize that Moses did not even write the Ten Commandments? They are recorded in the Torah.

Was the Law of Moses written down or spoken of in the Torah? Or, is the Torah or the Law, the first five books (Torah, Law, can mean God's instruction or instruction) to be called the Law of Moses?

The Law of Moses is God's Law. This is different than Moses' Law or Mosaic Law. Though these are of the Prophet Moses and are not called man's law.

Law as law is law or commandments and instruction. Law as instruction or teaching and even direction is for us to live by. We should listen to the instruction of and from God. We should follow, observe, obey His commandments. All that has been spoken we should be careful to listen and observe and do.

Torah as God's instruction is different from a Law Code. We do have the Law of Moses, Mosaic Law, the Law (the first five books of the Bible). Is the Law of Moses the first five books of the Bible? What of the Five Books of Moses? Then with the Law of Moses and the first five books, whether it is called or should be called this or such, we have if it should be called the Law or the Pentateuch. Then what is Mosaic Law? Is it these books or something else? What is the law or laws and the commandments or commands, these found in the law that make up the law. The Law has commandments that we should do, observe, follow. Be careful to do and observe, to obey. Is the Law the first five books, the commands or laws found therein, or the commands being the Ten Commandments, the commandments, with those Moses wrote down as well?

Did Moses write the Torah, the Five Books of Moses?

What did Moses write and what did the Kings of Israel need to write?

Yes, the Bible is a Jewish book. But it is not just for the Jews. It is for the church, the body of Christ, the body of Messiah, Israel, and the world.

A copy of the law of Moses was written upon stones. I am not sure what to do with that.

 

[TweetyBird]

TweetyBird,

The Mishna is the Oral Torah. If you say the Talmud is the Oral Torah, or that the Oral Torah is the Talmud and more, do you mean the Gemara or the Mishna and the Gemara?

If the Mishna is the Oral Torah before ever the Gemara, then whether or not a person calls the Gemara or the Talmud the Oral Torah before acknowledging the Mishna as the Oral Torah is there, if the Mishna was the Oral Torah first or if the Oral Torah is the Mishna whether that is all there is to it or not.

It does not matter. The oral Torah in Judaism is inclusive of all those writings.

Do you believe that the Jewish Library contains the Written Torah and the Oral Torah? The Oral Torah or Oral Tradition existed before the Mishna, but it is the Mishna that is called the Oral Torah in terms of the Jewish Library, and maybe the rest of the Jewish Library from Gemara and therefore Talmud (the Mishna and the Gemara make up or form the Talmud) to the others (to be determined or already determined in the minds of some, accepting it all and as Rabbinic or to eventually be acknowledged by those who are Rabbinic). Then was there anything Rabbinic before Paul was taught by Gamaliel? If even this is referred to as Rabbinic or a Rabbinic School of thought existing even before this. Many say Judaism is a later development (with the Rabbinics?).

Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism did not exist until the Talmud and afterward. It is a system that is based on non-Biblical tradition. During the first century there were only the sects of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Judaism claims that their Rabbinic system morphed out of the Pharisaical sect after the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD, which is the Rabbinical system not known until the 3rd century. That Gamaliel, Hillel and Shammai were "oral torah rabbis" is tradition. I know of no writings that refer to them other than the Talmud [except for Gamaliel in the NT]. From what Paul has stated about it, it was not oral law that he learned from G, which makes it's existence more than doubtful. Based on what Scripture has to say, there was no oral law. It never existed.

 

[Jacob]

It does not matter. The oral Torah in Judaism is inclusive of all those writings.

Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism did not exist until the Talmud and afterward. It is a system that is based on non-Biblical tradition. During the first century there were only the sects of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Judaism claims that their Rabbinic system morphed out of the Pharisaical sect after the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD, which is the Rabbinical system not known until the 3rd century. That Gamaliel, Hillel and Shammai were "oral torah rabbis" is tradition. I know of no writings that refer to them other than the Talmud [except for Gamaliel in the NT]. From what Paul has stated about it, it was not oral law that he learned from G, which makes it's existence more than doubtful. Based on what Scripture has to say, there was no oral law. It never existed.

We can read what has been written (the Torah, the written Torah) and study it. We can also talk about it.

Yes, you are correct that all that you speak of is oral torah. But the oral torah of Hillel and Shammai, Gamaliel and Paul, came before the Mishna. That oral tradition existed before the oral torah the mishna was written down is likely something that you can accept. But there was a reason to write things down after the destruction, and these things (that agree with and are not in contradiction with the written Torah) were either already in existence or came to exist. That there was an oral torah or an oral tradition before this, whether it is what we find in the Mishna or not whether in part or in whole, may be something you can accept or think about.

Do you understand that these have to do with God's commands, and that it is more than what we find in the written Torah?

Michael Chighel says, "The Mishna is an encyclopedia or rather an encyclopedic digest of all the laws and decrees of the oral torah."

It's divided into six orders.

ZERAIM Agriculture
MOED Holy Days
NASHIM Women
NEZIKIN Damages
KODOSHIM Holies
TAHAROT Purities

See also:

Has the Law been done away with?

Here is a post (below) with a link (click on the top and it will bring you to this post which is quoted here using TOL's quote function) from this thread (this thread just above this with its link).

You are wrong if you believe the first five books of the Bible or the TaNaKh (or Tanach) are not the Torah. That is what the T stands for. The Jewish Bible is the Torah. The Hebrew Bible is the TaNaKh. The New Testament is often seen to be part of the Christian Bible, with the first part being called the Old Testament. The New Testament Writings, or New Testament Scripture, is for Jew or Gentile, whether you are already a believer or not, as with the rest of the Bible though many are without the Law or not a part of Israel.

As for the Mishna and the Talmud I have not studied them in their entirety. The Oral Torah is indeed also Torah. It is on the level of scripture. But the TaNaKh and the New Testament come before the Mishna, and as much as the Mishna explains the Written Torah and the details of the Torah or the Law according to the six orders, and as much as you will not understand the Written Torah apart from the Oral Torah, you can understand the Written Torah and you can stop there. I encourage you to read the entire TaNaKh, or Old Testament, as well as the New Testament. It is these that make up the Bible. As a Christian it is all for you. As someone grafted in you may be of the one new man and not need to be circumcised or observe all of the Law of Moses. But you ought to obey God, Jesus, and God's commands as He has revealed them to you in His word, the Bible.

Michael Chighel (in his course, "Scroll Down" about the Torah and the Jewish Library) says, "The Mishna is an encyclopedia or rather an encyclopedic digest of all the laws and decrees of the oral torah."

It's divided into six orders.

ZERAIM Agriculture
MOED Holy Days
NASHIM Women
NEZIKIN Damages
KODOSHIM Holies
TAHAROT Purities

 

[TweetyBird]

The question is if the book of the law is the Torah.

No it is not. The Torah, according to Rabbinic Judaism is the first five books, the Talmud, Mishna, and all the writings within Judaism.

When you refer to Moses' Law, do you recognize that Moses did not even write the Ten Commandments? They are recorded in the Torah.

They are referred to as the Law of Moses throughout the OT and NT.

Was the Law of Moses written down or spoken of in the Torah? Or, is the Torah or the Law, the first five books (Torah, Law, can mean God's instruction or instruction) to be called the Law of Moses?

I do not understand the point of asking these same questions over and over again. You are so fixated on this, that I wonder what your point is.

The Law of Moses is God's Law. This is different than Moses' Law or Mosaic Law. Though these are of the Prophet Moses and are not called man's law.

It's all the same thing. The Law of Moses is the Law that God gave to Moses. It is called both the Law of Moses and the Law of God, but it is not the whole Law of God, only the Law of God given to Israel through Moses.

Law as law is law or commandments and instruction. Law as instruction or teaching and even direction is for us to live by. We should listen to the instruction of and from God. We should follow, observe, obey His commandments. All that has been spoken we should be careful to listen and observe and do.

No one can keep the Law of Moses, why do you think you can? Without a Levtical Priesthood, the Law has failed. That is why we have the new covenant in Christ, no more Moses, just Jesus.

A copy of the law of Moses was written upon stones. I am not sure what to do with that.

You can't do anything about it. Those stones no longer exist.

 

[Jacob]

No it is not. The Torah, according to Rabbinic Judaism is the first five books, the Talmud, Mishna, and all the writings within Judaism.

The first five books of the Bible or of the TaNaKh are called the Torah. The rest of holy or sacred scripture is what we have in the TaNaKh. The Mishna came later. And we also have the New Testament or the Apostle's Writings before that.

They are referred to as the Law of Moses throughout the OT and NT.

I don't know what you are saying here.

I do not understand the point of asking these same questions over and over again. You are so fixated on this, that I wonder what your point is.

I am not sure what you mean, but I think you are a woman and trying to teach me, against what we know should occur Biblically. Are you a part of the church, even the church that is Christian or the Christian church? Is this already the case in Judaism and is this the teaching of Judaism, that a woman should not teach or exercise authority over a man? You changed giggle to chuckle. A woman should be silent in church (synagogue, ?) and receive instruction from her husband at home. I have no idea what this would have to do with what you were responding to, however.

It's all the same thing. The Law of Moses is the Law that God gave to Moses. It is called both the Law of Moses and the Law of God, but it is not the whole Law of God, only the Law of God given to Israel through Moses.

The Law of God is throughout the TaNaKh, but the Torah or the Law of God is in or is the first five books.

No one can keep the Law of Moses, why do you think you can?

I take exception to you saying this. Yeshua, Jesus, did. And it is possible to become a Jew even if you were not born a Jew, as is the case with me being a convert. So, I don't see your point.

Without a Levtical Priesthood, the Law has failed. That is why we have the new covenant in Christ, no more Moses, just Jesus.

I say you should learn from Jesus and not reject Moses.

You can't do anything about it. Those stones no longer exist.

I am not sure how that fits into the argument. The point I was making was not that I can't do anything about it. The point was that the Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone, there were things God had Moses write down, we have the Torah or the Law, and we have this that a copy of the law of Moses was written on stones according to scripture which means this is true without a doubt but I also don't know if this means the Ten Commandments, the things Moses wrote down, or the entirety of the Torah or the Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law (I am thinking of the first five books or the Five Books of Moses, and we have terminology here because you refuse to allow Torah which means Law or instruction, saying it comes from the Talmud which I am not convinced of).

The 613 commandments. Whether or not there was a Law Code, the Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law, beginning with the Ten Commandment or not or the Ten Commandments or not.

 

[Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov]

You are very delusional. If your mother is a Jew, as in a daughter of the nation of Judah, then you are a Jew. That does not mean that you are Jewish. If both your parents are Jews, then you are a Jew and have a Tribe. If your father is a Jew and your mother is a gentile, you are a gentile. If you are Jewish, you cannot be a chr-stian; and if you are a chr-stian you cannot be Jewish. Quit trying to confuse people.

 

[Jacob]

You are very delusional. If your mother is a Jew, as in a daughter of the nation of Judah, then you are a Jew. That does not mean that you are Jewish. If both your parents are Jews, then you are a Jew and have a Tribe. If your father is a Jew and your mother is a gentile, you are a gentile. If you are Jewish, you cannot be a chr-stian; and if you are a chr-stian you cannot be Jewish. Quit trying to confuse people.

I converted to Judaism and as a Christian I accept all of the Bible not just the Torah. Paul was speaking of the TaNaKh when he said all scripture is inspired by God (God-Breathed) as far as I know or can tell. That is, begin with Torah. Accept it all in order to be a Jew, but you must be circumcised (I am). My parents have told me I am not Jewish, but I even observe Passover being circumcised and the other holy days of Torah plus more. The Ten Commandments are for me as a Jew. I eat kosher (only kosher meats, nothing unkosher), and I am practicing Judaism. My parents may not be Jewish, or if they are not they may become Jewish. But I am not them. I am a convert to Judaism and a proselyte to Israel. I accept the Torah as the Jewish Bible, the TaNaKh as the Hebrew Bible (holy scripture, sacred scripture), and the New Testament for the rest of the Bible which can be both Jewish and Christian. I study Torah daily. There is the Mishna which I have not read. I am 36 years old and did not have a Jewish upbringing, but a Christian one. Now I practice Judaism, with Yeshua as my Messiah. This is how I am still a Christian. I am not confusing anyone. I am a convert. I can say I am a Jew without saying I am a convert, but you are not accepting it. Do you believe that a person born a Gentile can convert to Judaism and become a Jew and of Israel? I do. And that is what I did. It doesn't make sense for a Jew to convert to Judaism unless he was not practicing Judaism and only a Jew by birth (but then why call this conversion?).

 

[Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov]

You are a liar, you cannot do that. You can never accept the chr-stian j-sus and still be Jewish. Jewish is a follower of the Mitz'vot, you are not. Messianic Judaism is a christ-an denomination, created by the Southern Baptists. If you believe in J-sus, you are a chr-stian.
Are there Jews that are chr-stians? Sure there are, but they are no longer Jewish. They are apostates; they are heretics; they are not Jewish. If you have Hebrew heritage, you can be a Hebrew chr-stian;. If you do not have Hebrew heritage, you cannot be a Hebrew chr-stian. Chr-stianity is a polytheistic, pagan, idolatrous religion; and none of this is permitted within Judaism.

 

[daqq]

You are a liar, you cannot do that. You can never accept the chr-stian j-sus and still be Jewish. Jewish is a follower of the Mitz'vot, you are not. Messianic Judaism is a christ-an denomination, created by the Southern Baptists. If you believe in J-sus, you are a chr-stian.
Are there Jews that are chr-stians? Sure there are, but they are no longer Jewish. They are apostates; they are heretics; they are not Jewish. If you have Hebrew heritage, you can be a Hebrew chr-stian;. If you do not have Hebrew heritage, you cannot be a Hebrew chr-stian. Chr-stianity is a polytheistic, pagan, idolatrous religion; and none of this is permitted within Judaism.

How is it that you do fulfill and maintain the following commandment?

Deuteronomy 10:16-19
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

 

[Jacob]

You are a liar, you cannot do that. You can never accept the chr-stian j-sus and still be Jewish. Jewish is a follower of the Mitz'vot, you are not. Messianic Judaism is a christ-an denomination, created by the Southern Baptists. If you believe in J-sus, you are a chr-stian.
Are there Jews that are chr-stians? Sure there are, but they are no longer Jewish. They are apostates; they are heretics; they are not Jewish. If you have Hebrew heritage, you can be a Hebrew chr-stian;. If you do not have Hebrew heritage, you cannot be a Hebrew chr-stian. Chr-stianity is a polytheistic, pagan, idolatrous religion; and none of this is permitted within Judaism.

Jesus (Yeshua) observed and taught the Law, as do I. See Matthew 5:17-20 NASB or any translation. If you read the Bible there is no polytheism at all. I don't understand why you are confused about this. I am only worshipping the one true God, not any idols. You are wrong about Messianic Judaism, but I am of Judaism though I cannot live apart from Yeshua as the my our Messiah. I don't have any Jewish Heritage or upbringing and I am told by my parents that I am not Jewish. But I know that since I am a convert I am. A convert to Judaism is Jewish because he is a convert. He is not Jewish because of his father or mother being Jewish or in having Jewish Heritage somehow. You may ask, can you be a convert to Judaism and accept the New Testament Scriptures or the Apostle's Writings with Yeshua as the Messiah and still be a Christian? Yes. You are correct that a Jew can become a Christian. But a Jew knows not to accept anything idolatrous so this cannot be accepting idolatry or he has ceased to be a Jew. And having read the New Testament from an early age I know there is nothing idolatrous in it. Throughout the Bible, including in the New Testament and with Paul we are warned against idolatry. Paul rescued people from idolatry. Is your concern idolatry? Nothing pagan is ever to be accepted by any Jew or Christian. A Jew can be a Christian yes. He is still Jewish. A Christian can become a Jew, yes. It is possible. I have done it. But Judaism came before Christianity, Christianity not being a new or false religion but a sect of Judaism. That is, in addition to those who were called Christian we have the followers of the way they call a sect.

Do you as a Jew accept Yeshua as the Messiah as I do?