The Bible and Torah

Jacob

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It is from the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it is about Michael who lives in the last days. The three books is the "laws," "prophets," and "mysteries." The books of mysteries would for example be other writings, such as Paul's writings; or also, The Dead Sea Scrolls. Historical writings often have mysteries and would not always be another class of books. The person being spoken of in 4Q534 is Michael. That is all I have to say about the matter. Bye.

I do not believe what you are saying and I do not follow you. Sorry, but what you have posted here is confusing meaning it is not clear and straightforward Biblical teaching. I don't see any agreement with the Bible. The Bible is the word of God. Scripture, all scripture, is inspired by God... God-Breathed.

I believe you are explaining your view on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 

Jacob

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The OT was not originally written in Hebrew - only from the time of David and onward. There was no Hebrew until about 900BCE. Hebrew evolved from proto-canaanite/akkadian as did Arabic, Aramaic, Greek, etc. In fact, the OT contains loan words from Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Egyptian, Persian, Chaldean. The "original" texts were written on scrolls, the 10 Commandments on stone tablets. There were no books back then :)



You are confusing yourself. The Jews use the Masorectic Mss, which the OT is translated from. The NT was codified from what was written, copied, and sent all over the Greek world, Arabia, and Africa by the writers of the NT. As early as the second century AD, the NT is quoted by various writers. The entire Bible, from Gen to Rev is the inspired words of God.

The word "TaNaKh" is a Talmudic concept, a division to schedule the one and two year reading cycles in Judaism. The Bible is one continuous written words of the Lord from Gen to Rev.

Once again, the information you are providing does not come from the Bible, but from outside sources. What are they?

I am having trouble following you. You can learn about the books of Torah from a Torah, or the books of the TaNaKh from a TaNaKh. Originally, these books or writings or scripture were not in book form, but scrolls. That is, scripture was written on scrolls. The Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone. The TaNaKh, holy / sacred scripture, was written on scrolls in Hebrew. We have copies today after and from the originals, the autographs.

I have heard of the one year cycle (we read according to the one year cycle) and the three year cycle (I have been in a congregation with the three year cycle). This (the one year reading cycle) is about the Torah, and the Haftorah or Haftarah. When reading according to the one year cycle the Torah is read through in a (one) year, with a Torah portion each Sabbath.
 

TweetyBird

New member
These words are words spoken in reference to scripture and the Bible.

No, they are not. There is no such word as "Tanakh" in the Bible, designated as the Law, the prophets, and the writings. You have a lot of thoughts that are not found in the Bible.
 

TweetyBird

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I am having trouble following you. You can learn about the books of Torah from a Torah, or the books of the TaNaKh from a TaNaKh. Originally, these books or writings or scripture were not in book form, but scrolls. That is, scripture was written on scrolls. The Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone. The TaNaKh, holy / sacred scripture, was written on scrolls in Hebrew. We have copies today after and from the originals, the autographs.

I have heard of the one year cycle (we read according to the one year cycle) and the three year cycle (I have been in a congregation with the three year cycle). This (the one year reading cycle) is about the Torah, and the Haftorah or Haftarah. When reading according to the one year cycle the Torah is read through in a (one) year, with a Torah portion each Sabbath.

The word "TaNaKh" is an acronym. It is not found in the Bible. It is found in the Talmud. The yearly reading cycles are Talmudic. Not found in the Bible.
 

Jacob

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No, they are not. There is no such word as "Tanakh" in the Bible, designated as the Law, the prophets, and the writings. You have a lot of thoughts that are not found in the Bible.
TaNaKh is the Torah, the Neviim, and the Kethuvim. This is the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.
 

Jacob

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The word "TaNaKh" is an acronym. It is not found in the Bible. It is found in the Talmud. The yearly reading cycles are Talmudic. Not found in the Bible.
When do you believe that the Talmud came to be?

Was the Torah read in the first and second temples, or in the temple at all?

When was the Torah written?

Moses was already read in the synagogues every Sabbath, from ancient times.

Acts 15:21 NASB “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Was the three year cycle in place in or from the temple in temple times?

Where do the one year and three year cycles come from?

What do you mean by one year and two year cycles?
 

TweetyBird

New member
TaNaKh is the Torah, the Neviim, and the Kethuvim. This is the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

Tanakh is not found in the Bible. It's made up acronym. You are not convincing. You keep posting Talmudic stuff and they say you found it in the Bible. NOT.
 

Jacob

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Tanakh is not found in the Bible. It's made up acronym. You are not convincing. You keep posting Talmudic stuff and they say you found it in the Bible. NOT.
You can verify this by looking in a TaNaKh as I have with mine.
 

TweetyBird

New member
When do you believe that the Talmud came to be?

It was compiled from 200-500AD, including the Mishna from about 150AD.

Was the Torah read in the first and second temples, or in the temple at all?

The Law of Moses was read, not the Torah. The Torah refers to the first five books of the Bible, the commentaries of the Talmud, other Jewish writings and often includes the entire OT.

When was the Torah written?

Your definition of "Torah" is different than reality, so I can't answer it. The Talmud was added to for centuries after 500AD.

Moses was already read in the synagogues every Sabbath, from ancient times.

And this proves what? Paul said that every time the Law of Moses was read, a veil was over the eyes of Israel and still is.


Was the three year cycle in place in or from the temple in temple times?

No. It was created at some point in the Talmudic history from 200AD onward.

Where do the one year and three year cycles come from?

The Talmud.

What do you mean by one year and two year cycles?

There is a one year and a three year cycle of reading per the Talmud. There is also the Septennial (Shmita) Torah cycle of two, three and a half year periods. This seven year Torah reading schedule matches the Sabbatical cycle described in the Torah.
 

Jacob

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It was compiled from 200-500AD, including the Mishna from about 150AD.



The Law of Moses was read, not the Torah. The Torah refers to the first five books of the Bible, the commentaries of the Talmud, other Jewish writings and often includes the entire OT.



Your definition of "Torah" is different than reality, so I can't answer it. The Talmud was added to for centuries after 500AD.



And this proves what? Paul said that every time the Law of Moses was read, a veil was over the eyes of Israel and still is.




No. It was created at some point in the Talmudic history from 200AD onward.



The Talmud.



There is a one year and a three year cycle of reading per the Talmud. My mistake on the two year cycle.

Are you talking about reading the Mishna or the Talmud? The Torah came before these. Moses was read in the synagogues before the Mishna and the Talmud.

I don't know where the two year cycle idea came from or comes from either.

The Law of Moses. Moses. The Law. The Law of Moses. The Law.

The word Torah and the word Law mean the same thing. By this we mean the Law of Moses or the first five books of the Bible, the first five books of the TaNaKh. What then is the Law of Moses?

The Torah or the Law is attributed to Moses, meaning the first five books of the Bible or of the TaNaKh.

The Law and the Law of Moses can both refer to the first five books. If the Law, or God's instruction, is of Moses, then maybe the first five books are the Law of Moses. Do you know about the Five Books of Moses?

What of the Torah, which means instruction or teaching, even direction? With instruction or teaching or just instruction we have the Torah the first five books of the TaNaKh and the Bible, the Pentateuch.

The Torah is the first five books. The Neviim follows this. Then we have the Kethuvim. This is holy or sacred scripture. It can all be referred to as Torah, but usually we mean the first five books (of the Bible), the written Torah. The oral Torah was just that, oral. But this oral tradition was written down (the Mishna). These are both the Torah. This does not mean that the first five books of the TaNaKh are not the Torah, do not refer to the Torah, or are not called the Torah.

The word Torah and the word Law mean the same thing. They both refer to the first five books of the Bible, or of the TaNaKh, the Hebrew Scriptures. Have you heard of the Jewish Scriptures? The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. And there is more. There is more to the Jewish Scriptures than the Jewish Bible, the Torah.

In the Torah (is it the Law of Moses) do we find the Law of Moses? Genesis (Bereshit) contains God's name which was revealed in the time of Moses. The Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone by God, and these are the covenant God made with the nation of Israel. But there is more. Other things we written down. And we have the Torah which contains everything attributed to Moses. Who wrote the Torah?

תּוֹרָה
 

Jacob

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It was compiled from 200-500AD, including the Mishna from about 150AD.



The Law of Moses was read, not the Torah. The Torah refers to the first five books of the Bible, the commentaries of the Talmud, other Jewish writings and often includes the entire OT.



Your definition of "Torah" is different than reality, so I can't answer it. The Talmud was added to for centuries after 500AD.



And this proves what? Paul said that every time the Law of Moses was read, a veil was over the eyes of Israel and still is.




No. It was created at some point in the Talmudic history from 200AD onward.



The Talmud.



There is a one year and a three year cycle of reading per the Talmud. There is also the Septennial (Shmita) Torah cycle of two, three and a half year periods. This seven year Torah reading schedule matches the Sabbatical cycle described in the Torah.

Are you talking about reading the Talmud or reading the Torah?

The first five books of the Bible are the Pentateuch. This is the Law, the Law of Moses, the Five Books of Moses, Moses, the Torah, the Jewish Bible, the first five books of the TaNaKh, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, the TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible, not the Prophets or the Writings, and the first five books of the Bible or the first five books of the Christian Bible. The Hebrew word translated as Law is Torah. If you look in a TaNaKh you will see the first five books are referred to as the Torah. I am thinking of the words division and section. The first division being the Law according to Christians we have this as the Hebrew word Torah. If you begin with Hebrew you will not arrive as something different, but this may have originally been Torah then translated as Law. Were the first five books of the Bible first or originally called the Law or something else?
 

Jacob

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The Written Torah came before the Oral Torah if by Oral Torah you mean the Mishna, but it is all Torah.

Did the Oral Torah exist before the Written Torah?
 

TweetyBird

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Are you talking about reading the Mishna or the Talmud? The Torah came before these. Moses was read in the synagogues before the Mishna and the Talmud.

The Mishna is part of the Talmud. The Torah is more than the Mosaic Law. It is a collection of writings in Rabbincial Talmudism. The word "towrah" in Hebrew is simply the word for law. It does not always refer to the Mosaic Law.


The word Torah and the word Law mean the same thing. By this we mean the Law of Moses or the first five books of the Bible, the first five books of the TaNaKh. What then is the Law of Moses?

The Law of Moses is the Torah of Moses. "The Torah" is not just the law of Moses - it is the entire writings of Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism.

The Torah is the first five books. The Neviim follows this. Then we have the Kethuvim. This is holy or sacred scripture. It can all be referred to as Torah, but usually we mean the first five books (of the Bible), the written Torah. The oral Torah was just that, oral. But this oral tradition was written down (the Mishna). These are both the Torah. This does not mean that the first five books of the TaNaKh are not the Torah, do not refer to the Torah, or are not called the Torah.

You are, quite simply, confused. You cannot force your own meanings into the concepts found in the Talmud as a definition.

The word Torah and the word Law mean the same thing. They both refer to the first five books of the Bible, or of the TaNaKh, the Hebrew Scriptures.

The word "towrah" means law. It does not always mean the Mosaic Law.

The "TaNaKh" is an acronym. It is not found in the Bible.


Have you heard of the Jewish Scriptures? The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. And there is more. There is more to the Jewish Scriptures than the Jewish Bible, the Torah.

Now you are making me chuckle. You have no clue at all what you are talking about.

In the Torah (is it the Law of Moses) do we find the Law of Moses? Genesis (Bereshit) contains God's name which was revealed in the time of Moses. The Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone by God, and these are the covenant God made with the nation of Israel. But there is more. Other things we written down. And we have the Torah which contains everything attributed to Moses. Who wrote the Torah?

I see that you are not getting your information from just reading the Bible. The 10 commandments are only part of the covenant of laws and commandments with Israel. The entire Mosaic Law is the old covenant, which includes the 10 and the Book of the Law - also called the Law of Moses and the Covenant of Moses and the Covenant with Israel.
 

TweetyBird

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The Written Torah came before the Oral Torah if by Oral Torah you mean the Mishna, but it is all Torah.

Did the Oral Torah exist before the Written Torah?

The oral Torah is the Talmud. There was no oral law given to Moses at any time. There is no mention of any oral Torah in the entire Bible. The oral Torah is a tradition of Judaism that is non-existent in the Bible. Everything that was spoken by God to Moses for Israel was written down. Every single word. There is no mention of other commandments that were given to Moses that were not written down in the entire Bible.
 

Jacob

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The Mishna is part of the Talmud.
The Mishna is called the Oral Torah. It was before the Talmud. With the Gemara, we have the Talmud. So the Talmud has the Mishna and the Gemara.
The Torah is more than the Mosaic Law.
The word is used in the Psalms and elsewhere.
It is a collection of writings in Rabbincial Talmudism. The word "towrah" in Hebrew is simply the word for law. It does not always refer to the Mosaic Law.
The Law of Moses is the Torah of Moses. "The Torah" is not just the law of Moses - it is the entire writings of Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism.
The way you are using it it is more than just the Talmud, but everything that is a part of Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism. When a person uses the word Torah, when a Jew uses the word, he means either the written Torah (Moses) or both the written Torah and the oral Torah. Seldom does a person mean only the oral Torah. But to say Torah doesn't necessarily mean the written Torah, for both the written Torah and the oral Torah are Torah. It is all the Torah. But this is not how I was using the term. I am a Jew, though a convert. And I have not studied all of the Mishna. I do know about it. I would like to study the Mishna before the Gemara. I have read either part of the Mishna or part of the Gemara before. I understand that this is the Talmud, but I forget if I understood I was reading Mishna, Gemara, or Talmud.
You are, quite simply, confused. You cannot force your own meanings into the concepts found in the Talmud as a definition.
I believe you are challenging me about my knowledge of the Talmud. Rather, we ought to accept that the first five books are called the Torah, independent of the the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism.
The word "towrah" means law. It does not always mean the Mosaic Law.

The "TaNaKh" is an acronym. It is not found in the Bible.

Now you are making me chuckle. You have no clue at all what you are talking about.

I see that you are not getting your information from just reading the Bible. The 10 commandments are only part of the covenant of laws and commandments with Israel. The entire Mosaic Law is the old covenant, which includes the 10 and the Book of the Law - also called the Law of Moses and the Covenant of Moses and the Covenant with Israel.
I understand the Ten Commandments to be the covenant God made with Israel. They are found in the written Torah different from that they were written on tablets of stone, but the same commandments. This is not the covenant in its entirety. These are not the only commandments given to Israel. The Torah has 613 commands or commandments. These have been counted. There are five books in the Torah. They are Bereshit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, Devarim. These are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The word Torah means Law. This is the Law or the Pentateuch. It is the Law, the Law of Moses, the Five Books of Moses. These are the first five books of the TaNaKh, the Hebrew Bible. They are the Jewish Bible. And they are the first five books of the Bible, even the Christian Bible.

I have nothing against anything Rabbinic, or Rabbinical. The word Torah means a lot. But the first thing it means (aside from its definition) is the first five books of the Bible (also, Jewish Bible, Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible) or the Five Books of Moses, also called the Law. This is the Written Torah. It is the Torah. Later we have what is called the Oral Torah, but it was written down. Then we just need to know if the Oral Torah was an Oral tradition that goes back to Moses.
 

Hawkins

Active member
Living according to Torah and living according to the Bible includes the Prophets and the Writings and the New Testament.

So we have the Torah and the Neviim and the Kethuvim (these are the TaNaKh). This is the Torah (Law) and the Neviim (Prophets) and the Kethuvim (Writings). We also have the New Testament Scriptures or the New Testament Writings. Some refer to the Apostle's Writings.

The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The Written Torah. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. This is holy or sacred scripture. The scripture, scriptures. The Bible either includes the New Testament or the Christian Bible does. The Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament is the Bible, or the Old Testament and the New Testament (are these designations correct?). Usually when a person says Bible they mean the Christian Bible. But the word Bible can be for the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible as well.

Start with Torah. Everything starts there.

I think that you are partly right at least. The Jewish OT Canon is the legitimate one. Thus the current situation is that ,

The Jews as the formal earthly representative of God
- can only have an authenticated OT Canon but not the NT one

The Catholics once as another earthly representative of God
- can only have an authenticated NT but not the OT one

The Protestants as yet another authenticated representative of God
- can have both an authenticated NT and an authenticated OT
 

Jacob

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The oral Torah is the Talmud. There was no oral law given to Moses at any time. There is no mention of any oral Torah in the entire Bible. The oral Torah is a tradition of Judaism that is non-existent in the Bible. Everything that was spoken by God to Moses for Israel was written down. Every single word. There is no mention of other commandments that were given to Moses that were not written down in the entire Bible.
What do you mean by other commandments? Do you have a for example? The Oral Torah can help a person to understand the Written Torah, and was not written down in opposition or in contradiction to the written Torah.

The Five Books of Moses, the Torah, is attributed to Moses. Moses' death is recorded in the Torah.

Do you understand that the law is more than the Ten Commandments? The Ten Commandments were written by God on tablets of stone. They are the covenant. But there is more. God's law was written down, recorded, in what we call the Torah (also called the Law) which is the first five books. That is, there are five books that make up the Torah. The Torah or the Law is the first division of the Hebrew Bible, if you call it a division. As the Jewish Bible it stands alone. But this, or that, is not all there is. God's instruction is more than the Torah, whereas the word Torah does and can mean instruction. The scripture, and not just the Torah, is often called the Torah or referred to as the Torah or as Torah. I have no problem with that.

Exodus 34:28 NASB - So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB - "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4 NASB - "He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.
 

Jacob

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I think that you are partly right at least. The Jewish OT Canon is the legitimate one. Thus the current situation is that ,

The Jews as the formal earthly representative of God
- can only have an authenticated OT Canon but not the NT one

The Catholics once as another earthly representative of God
- can only have an authenticated NT but not the OT one

The Protestants as yet another authenticated representative of God
- can have both an authenticated NT and an authenticated OT

I don't know where this idea comes from. I realize you are relating this idea so you either must support it or it is yours.

There is 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB. All scripture is the TaNaKh, the Hebrew Bible.

Why do people (sometimes, or people do) call the TaNaKh or the first part of the Bible the Old Testament (OT)?
 

Hawkins

Active member
I don't know where this idea comes from. I realize you are relating this idea so you either must support it or it is yours.

There is 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB. All scripture is the TaNaKh, the Hebrew Bible.

Why do people (sometimes, or people do) call the TaNaKh or the first part of the Bible the Old Testament (OT)?

I am talking about the fact that today's Judaism still denies Christ, No?

Today's Catholics still have its OT Bible based off the Septuagint, No?

Answer the above 2 questions!
 
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