Saved.One.by.Grace
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Wait a minute. You don't believe the book of Daniel was inspired by God? It's not Daniel's opinion, it's God's word. That's good enough for me.
the beasts of Daniel
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
Wait a minute. You don't believe the book of Daniel was inspired by God? It's not Daniel's opinion, it's God's word. That's good enough for me.
of course I believe that
you have to look at what I was responding to
which
I didn't appreciate at all
Saved.One.by.Grace
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True.
The beast of Revelation 13 will form within territories Daniel has wrote about, but it won't be the same beast. Premillenials have the correct chronology of events between Daniel, Matthew 24-28 and the Revelation of John.
how can you ignore the fact that the fourth beast of daniel and the second beast of revelation both have ten horns?
Saved.One.by.Grace
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I jumped the gun on you here. I apologize. I disagree with the point you're trying to make though.
can you do it reasonably?
Saved.One.by.Grace
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The Jewish Religion has an attachment to numbers. Books have been written about Jews and numbers. Maybe that's why I like them so much. I had thought of becoming a Mathematician at one time, before I ended up as a Design Engineer. Numbers like ten and twelve, six and seven, etc, show up throughout the Bible. I think of God as the Ultimate Engineer since He designed and holds together the Universe.
The fact that ten is referred to in two different prophesies, by two different authors, for two different times. I don't find that significant.
the second author was well aware of the first
and
would not use ten horns
if
there was no connection
Saved.One.by.Grace
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What is your rationale behind this statement? Please be specific to this statement only, mainly because we are in agreement on most everything else, at least I think we are.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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The second author, John, would record what he saw. If he saw ten, ten is what he would record. He was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't see the connection you see.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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Have I been reasonable enough? My lunch break is coming to an end. I may not have enough time for further discussions until much later.
well open your eyes
the author of revelation borrows heavily from the old testament
and
it is not an accident
Saved.One.by.Grace
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This is going to be a respectful conversation right? Telling me to open my eyes doesn't seem all that respectful to me! You are the one touting this Science Fiction writer as an equal to Biblical scholars.
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genuineoriginal
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The prophecy of Daniel 7 has four beasts.
The first three beasts are represented by known animals: a lion, a bear, and a leopard.
Unlike the other three beasts, the fourth beast is not described by comparing it to a known animal.
The description claims that it is diverse from the other three.
Daniel 7:7 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. |
The description is unusual and makes it seem to be comparable to Leviathan and Behemoth, dinosaurs (dragons) from the book of Job.
Spoiler
Spoiler
The fourth beast is completely different in this respect from the beast of Revelation 13, which is described as being like the first three beasts of Daniel 7 instead of being described as being diverse from them as the fourth beast was.
Revelation 13:1-2 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. |
Saved.One.by.Grace
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What makes more sense to me is that the beast in Revelation is a hybrid of the beasts of Daniel, not the same as any one of them. The Bible Knowledge Commentary, a Conservative Commentary from scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary, state the following:
The beast out of the sea introduced (Rev_13:1-2)
Rev_13:1-18 presents a most important personage of the end time — a beast coming out of the sea. His 10 horns and 7 heads, with 10 crowns on his horns, depict the revived Roman Empire, which was also represented by the fourth beast of Daniel, which also had 10 horns (Dan_7:7-8; cf. Rev_13:3; Rev_17:3, Rev_17:7). In Rev_13:1-18 and Rev_17:1-18 the beast is the world ruler, whereas in Dan_7:1-28 the little horn on the beast was the world ruler.
The fact that the beast comes out from the sea indicates that he is a Gentile, for the sea of humanity is involved as his source (cf. Rev_17:15).
Many have said that the beast refers to some character in past history, but the context clearly refers to the final three and one-half years before Christ’s second coming. Under the control of this central ruler in the Middle East during the Great Tribulation will be 10 nations (cf. Dan_7:24, "The 10 horns are 10 kings"). (For discussion of various alternative views, see Walvoord, Revelation, pp. 198-99.)
In Rev_13:2 the beast was seen to gather in the symbolism of the three preceding empires — Greece (a leopard, cf. Dan_7:6), Medo-Persia (a bear, cf. Dan_7:5), and Babylon (a lion, cf. Dan_7:4). The power of the beast was derived from Satan himself: the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. This accords with Paul (2Th_2:9) who referred to "the lawless one" (i.e., the Antichrist, this first beast of Rev_13:1-18) as working "all kinds of counterfeit miracles [dynamei], signs [sēmeiois], and wonders [terasin]."
Maybe this is what you're trying to say. But to say John borrowed from Daniel is to lessen John's Revelation. I take exception to that.Rev_13:1-18 presents a most important personage of the end time — a beast coming out of the sea. His 10 horns and 7 heads, with 10 crowns on his horns, depict the revived Roman Empire, which was also represented by the fourth beast of Daniel, which also had 10 horns (Dan_7:7-8; cf. Rev_13:3; Rev_17:3, Rev_17:7). In Rev_13:1-18 and Rev_17:1-18 the beast is the world ruler, whereas in Dan_7:1-28 the little horn on the beast was the world ruler.
The fact that the beast comes out from the sea indicates that he is a Gentile, for the sea of humanity is involved as his source (cf. Rev_17:15).
Many have said that the beast refers to some character in past history, but the context clearly refers to the final three and one-half years before Christ’s second coming. Under the control of this central ruler in the Middle East during the Great Tribulation will be 10 nations (cf. Dan_7:24, "The 10 horns are 10 kings"). (For discussion of various alternative views, see Walvoord, Revelation, pp. 198-99.)
In Rev_13:2 the beast was seen to gather in the symbolism of the three preceding empires — Greece (a leopard, cf. Dan_7:6), Medo-Persia (a bear, cf. Dan_7:5), and Babylon (a lion, cf. Dan_7:4). The power of the beast was derived from Satan himself: the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. This accords with Paul (2Th_2:9) who referred to "the lawless one" (i.e., the Antichrist, this first beast of Rev_13:1-18) as working "all kinds of counterfeit miracles [dynamei], signs [sēmeiois], and wonders [terasin]."
sorry but you seem to be ignoring the connection between daniel and revelation
the beast of revelation
was, is not, and is to come
that is why the first has seven heads and ten horns
the second which is of the first only has ten horns like the fourth beast of daniel
genuineoriginal
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The Dispensationalists from the Dallas Theological Seminary mean well, but their interpretations of Daniel and Revelation form an errant eschatology.
John was shown a vision of what would take place from the time that the tribulation began in 70 CE until the time Jesus returned to set up His kingdom, and beyond.
The beast that John was shown is like all four of the beasts that Daniel was shown. John did not borrow from Daniel. John was shown a vision of a time unrelated to the time of Daniel's prophecy. In the time of John's prophecy, the world power will be an empire that is a hybrid of the four empires from Daniel's prophecy.
what is that based on?
genuineoriginal
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The prophecy in Daniel 7 about the four beasts (empires) was brought to a close in 37 CE at the end of the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9 when the children of Israel failed to repent in fulfillment of Jeremiah 18:9-10.
Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE to fulfill the prophecy from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Luke 21), and the end of the war made the land desolate by 73 CE in fulfillment of Daniel 9:27.
These events of the Roman/Jewish war of 70-73 CE are represented by the four horsemen of the apocalypse recorded in Revelation 6:1-8.
The remaining years of the great tribulation from 73 CE till this time are represented by the fifth seal.
Revelation 7:9-17 gives the account of the large number of Jews and Gentiles from every nationality and tongue that became believers during the time of the great tribulation.
The sixth seal is about the signs in the stars, moon, and sun that happen immediately after the end of the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 6:12-14.
The time of the beast in Revelation 13:1 is the last 3-1/2 years of the time of the seven trumpets.