THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

[turbosixx]

Hello
Here are some verses Deuteronomy 30:5 Revelation 5:10 Daniel 7:18 Micah 4:2 Matthew 4:17 Jeremiah 23:5 Matthew 19:28 Luke 1:32 Luke 19:11 Matthew 24:14

Thanks for the verses.

I'm asking about Jesus and the 12 offering an earthly kingdom. None of those NT verses tell us it's an earthly kingdom.

When Jesus is teaching the Jews about the coming kingdom, what does he call it?

During Jesus' ministry He describes the kingdom He is offering many times. Can you point to a passage where Jesus is describing the kingdom like the earthly kingdom you envision?

 

[DougE]

Thanks for the verses.

I'm asking about Jesus and the 12 offering an earthly kingdom. None of those NT verses tell us it's an earthly kingdom.

When Jesus is teaching the Jews about the coming kingdom, what does he call it?

During Jesus' ministry He describes the kingdom He is offering many times. Can you point to a passage where Jesus is describing the kingdom like the earthly kingdom you envision?

Hello
I don't know of a verse that you are looking for. You have to take verses like Matthew 16:19 and Luke 11:2 and take all the verses in the Bible and make conclusions.

 

[turbosixx]

Hello
I don't know of a verse that you are looking for. You have to take verses like Matthew 16:19 and Luke 11:2 and take all the verses in the Bible and make conclusions.

My point is, if Jesus and the 12 were offering the earthly kingdom to Israel someone should be able to point to multiple passages that show they are offering it. I personally don't know of any passages that speak of an earthly kingdom but many to the contrary.

I suggest to you the Jews misunderstood the prophecies taking them literally when actually they're spiritual in nature. The prophets are just using terms they can relate to. For example, do you believe heaven has streets of gold? Of course not, but that is the finest road material we can relate to.

When Jesus teaches about the kingdom, He calls it the kingdom of heaven. When He describes the kingdom it doesn't look like an earthly physical kingdom, it looks like to the church. For example, in the parable of the sower.

Matt. 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
And so on.


You said:

Paul was not opposed to the twelve...they were preaching the kingdom on earth to Israel.

Israel was still being offered the kingdom which required faith in Jesus as Messiah, Son of God and King and confession and baptism for remission of sins to be priests in the kingdom.

Paul preached and converted Christians the exact same way as the 12.
Acts 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

So my question is where/what is the difference?

Respectfully,
Tom

 

[DougE]

My point is, if Jesus and the 12 were offering the earthly kingdom to Israel someone should be able to point to multiple passages that show they are offering it. I personally don't know of any passages that speak of an earthly kingdom but many to the contrary. I suggest to you the Jews misunderstood the prophecies taking them literally when actually they're spiritual in nature.

When Jesus teaches about the kingdom, He calls it the kingdom of heaven. When He describes the kingdom it doesn't look like an earthly physical kingdom, it looks like to the church. For example, in the parable of the sower.

Matt. 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
And so on.


You said:


Paul preached and converted Christians the exact same way as the 12.
Acts 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

So my question is where/what is the difference?

Respectfully,
Tom

Hello
There are verses that speak of Israel being given the land for ever Genesis 13:15 ; that is on the earth

Israel was promised to be a kingdom of priests in Exodus 19:6
Revelation 5:10 says they will be priests and reign on the earth.
Take these two together and I can conclude that since there is no promise to the church as being priests it must refer to Israel.
Take it all together the kingdom is for Israel on earth.

The gospel of the kingdom was preached in Matthew 4:23 and if the kingdom is being preached I can conclude it is the kingdom on earth for Israel.

 

[turbosixx]

Hello
There are verses that speak of Israel being given the land for ever Genesis 13:15 ; that is on the earth

I suggest it was conditional, Deut. 28. Look at Israel's history. They have not always possed the land. God drove them out, had them carried off into captivity or ruled by another nation whenever they were not obeying His commandments.

Israel was promised to be a kingdom of priests in Exodus 19:6
Revelation 5:10 says they will be priests and reign on the earth.
Take these two together and I can conclude that since there is no promise to the church as being priests it must refer to Israel.
Take it all together the kingdom is for Israel on earth.

The gospel of the kingdom was preached in Matthew 4:23 and if the kingdom is being preached I can conclude it is the kingdom on earth for Israel.

I can see how you could come to that conclusion but that is really not evidence proving it's earthly and not spiritual. Please consider this. Jesus said the kingdom was at hand and that people He was speaking to would see it come.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Lk. 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”


If the kingdom/church wasn't established, what is the good news Philip is preaching about it?
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

If the kingdom/church wasn't established, why is Paul saying we have been transferred into it?
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

 

[bibleverse2]

. . . the Church of Christ which includes Gentiles The Israel of God Gal 6. It hasn't nothing to do with the physical nation israel those born merly of the flesh, theyre not the children of God Rom 9:8

Good point.

For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5), but being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, is not based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All Jewish and Gentile Christians are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

 

[bibleverse2]

If Peter and Paul preach the same gospel then according to Peter in Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 if somebody repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus and believes that this alone saves they are lost. This is not the gospel found in Paul's epistles.

Note that Paul nowhere contradicted that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Some people feel that baptism cannot be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation is not based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

 

[beloved57]

Good point.

For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5), but being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, is not based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All Jewish and Gentile Christians are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

Very well stated!

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[DougE]

I suggest it was conditional, Deut. 28. Look at Israel's history. They have not always possed the land. God drove them out, had them carried off into captivity or ruled by another nation whenever they were not obeying His commandments.



I can see how you could come to that conclusion but that is really not evidence proving it's earthly and not spiritual. Please consider this. Jesus said the kingdom was at hand and that people He was speaking to would see it come.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Lk. 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”


If the kingdom/church wasn't established, what is the good news Philip is preaching about it?
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

If the kingdom/church wasn't established, why is Paul saying we have been transferred into it?
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Hello
The kingdom was offered to Israel but they rejected Jesus as Messiah and King and stoned Stephen. Israel diminished and the dispensation of grace postponed the kingdom. Paul turned to the Gentiles with the gospel of grace.

 

[DougE]

Note that Paul nowhere contradicted that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Some people feel that baptism cannot be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation is not based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Hello
Abraham was justified unto eternal life by believing God (Genesis 12:2 Romans 4:3).

Abraham was justified by works under the covenant (Genesis 17:10) and declared to be the friend of God (James 2:23) but he was already justified by faith alone.

 

[DougE]

My point is, if Jesus and the 12 were offering the earthly kingdom to Israel someone should be able to point to multiple passages that show they are offering it. I personally don't know of any passages that speak of an earthly kingdom but many to the contrary.

I suggest to you the Jews misunderstood the prophecies taking them literally when actually they're spiritual in nature. The prophets are just using terms they can relate to. For example, do you believe heaven has streets of gold? Of course not, but that is the finest road material we can relate to.

When Jesus teaches about the kingdom, He calls it the kingdom of heaven. When He describes the kingdom it doesn't look like an earthly physical kingdom, it looks like to the church. For example, in the parable of the sower.

Matt. 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
And so on.


You said:


Paul preached and converted Christians the exact same way as the 12.
Acts 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

So my question is where/what is the difference?

Respectfully,
Tom

Hello
In regard to Paul in Acts 18 it must be kept in mind this is a transitional book and what must be considered is what does Paul say in his epistles.

 

[turbosixx]

The kingdom was offered to Israel

You haven't proven this point. When/Where were they offered the kingdom?

 

[turbosixx]

Hello
In regard to Paul in Acts 18 it must be kept in mind this is a transitional book and what must be considered is what does Paul say in his epistles.

I suggest that this is an excuse to explain away inconsistencies in your doctrine.

Have you considered that Paul's letters are written to Christians that he and the 12 converted the exact same way? So before Paul sends his letter to people who have been converted by Peter, Apollos and Paul the exact same way, are they divided in Christ? If so, how/why?

 

[Right Divider]

You need to study more with other Christians, before you fart your nonsense. "Save by faith only" as a topic is theologically from Paul and Paul only.

It's Paul who theorized it under the revelation of Jesus Christ though.

You can choose to continue to live in denial and argue against the obvious though.

If you are lazy, you can start by reading the following,

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/pauline-theology/

In order to understand the development of Paul's theological system, it is necessary to begin with his beliefs as a Pharisee....

Start with the above sentence then keep reading on why he has a theological system tied to who he is as a Pharisee!

Your childish comments are unnecessary, but you cannot help it.

 

[Zeke]

You need to study more with other Christians, before you fart your nonsense. "Save by faith only" as a topic is theologically from Paul and Paul only.

It's Paul who theorized it under the revelation of Jesus Christ though.

You can choose to continue to live in denial and argue against the obvious though.

If you are lazy, you can start by reading the following,

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/pauline-theology/


In order to understand the development of Paul's theological system, it is necessary to begin with his beliefs as a Pharisee....

Start with the above sentence then keep reading on why he has a theological system tied to who he is as a Pharisee!

The teachings of your boogeyman Paul was slandered by the outward jew Acts 21:28, in like manner as it was with the spirit of Christ speaking through Jesus, John 10:19-20
Paul's teachings matches the inward teachings of Christ John 14:11, 1 Cor 3:16, John 2:19, Luke 17:20-21, Acts 28:31, John 2:21, the mystery of Christ in man he can't comprehend by the dead letter naturally read with his intellect and devilish minded demands for signs that match ones traditional "outlook" , 1 Cor 1:22, 2 Cor 13:5, the letter is to be spiritually discerned which is foolishness to the minds of men, but you won't hear here, are on any other forum you push this anti Paul gibberish on until you actually have an inward revelation like both Jesus and Paul had by the same spirit so you can actually understand Christ, is the none observable kingdom in you, Galatians 1:12, John 1:13, Luke 24:45, Psalms 119:18, Romans 7:22.

 

[DougE]

You haven't proven this point. When/Where were they offered the kingdom?

Hello
The twelve certainly thought the kingdom was coming:

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

 

[turbosixx]

Hello
The twelve certainly thought the kingdom was coming:

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

I'm sorry but man "thinking" it's coming is not "offering" the kingdom to Israel. If Jesus and the 12 offered the earthly kingdom to Israel, it should be a simple matter of book, chapter and verse.

Does this sound like the earthly kingdom you envision? Sons of the devil living among sons of the kingdom like we have in the world today?
Matt. 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm sorry but man "thinking" it's coming is not "offering" the kingdom to Israel. If Jesus and the 12 offered the earthly kingdom to Israel, it should be a simple matter of book, chapter and verse.

Does this sound like the earthly kingdom you envision? Sons of the devil living among sons of the kingdom like we have in the world today?
Matt. 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Of course not.... there was the time of Jacob's trouble that PRECEDES the actual coming of the kingdom.
The kingdom comes AFTER the return of the King which is AFTER the time of Jacob's trouble, just like scripture describes.

 

[DougE]

I'm sorry but man "thinking" it's coming is not "offering" the kingdom to Israel. If Jesus and the 12 offered the earthly kingdom to Israel, it should be a simple matter of book, chapter and verse.

Does this sound like the earthly kingdom you envision? Sons of the devil living among sons of the kingdom like we have in the world today?
Matt. 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Hello
This parable does not describe the kingdom. It is the end of the age after the tribulation in which believing Israel is separated out from the unbelievers and will enter the kingdom.

 

[turbosixx]

Hello
This parable does not describe the kingdom. It is the end of the age after the tribulation in which believing Israel is separated out from the unbelievers and will enter the kingdom.

Could you please describe this for me a little more.

So you're saying that Christ will come and set up His kingdom separating the Jews and Gentiles for a 1,000 years? Then He leaves and then Jews have to live among the Gentiles until the harvest?