THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

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Theo102 said:
That would depend on whether on not what you had faith in was consistent with those ideals.


Ignoring text that doesn't agree with your beliefs is a lot like cherry-picking the facts that don't disrupt your model of the world. It's not a great strategy if you want to be rational about it.


In the original context of the covenant the blood was symbolic, and sacrifice was repudiated by several of the prophets:

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psalm 51:16

Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Micah 6:7


You're welcome.


Fair enough. I think it's always better to follow where the evidence leads.


May your path be a narrow one.
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God commanded the sacrifice of animals for the people who were in the covenant with Him.

God did not like it though that a person could sin, give a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins.

God said He would make a new covenant one day where HE would purify us, instead of the people using animals to purify themselves.

Jesus is the last sacrifice once and for all.
 
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Theo102 said:
Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
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God said that to the people who were in covenant with Him.

How do you get that means 'but not for the Gentiles'?
 
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If the only thing the jailer Paul spoke to had to do is believe and nothing else, why did he ask what he had to do and why then was he water baptized with the baptism of repentance?

In Acts 2:37 those to whom Peter preached responded by asking, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Why did Peter say, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That is two different times now you see that people asked what should they do and they repented as was evident by their water baptism.

In addition, we see that after Paul believed he was baptized with the baptism of repentance (Acts 9:18); as were the Samaritans (Acts 8:12); the Ethiopian (Acts 8:35-39); Cornelius (Acts 10:47-48) and Crispus (Acts 18:8).

Same one and only gospel that saves preached by all and to all.
 
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When Jesus walked the earth he says to repent of sins (Luke 13:5); Jesus says if you obey my teachings you will be saved (Matthew 6:14, Matthew 6:15, John 8:31, John 13:17, John 15:10, John 15:14).

In addition, the disciples after having received the Holy Spirit, they CONTINUED to preach that the people should believe AND REPENT of their sins and call on Jesus' name (Acts 2:38, Acts 5:31, Luke 24:47, Acts 3:19,) and, even PAUL HIMSELF PREACHED REPENT of SINS (Acts 17:30; Acts 20:21, Acts 26:20, 2 Corinthians 12:21).

When Jesus died, rose again, and ascended to heaven, he taught to obey and repent of sins, Revelation 3:3, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:19, Revelation 9:20,21,Revelation 16:10, 11.
 
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Theo102

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God's Truth said:
God commanded the sacrifice of animals for the people who were in the covenant with Him.
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Burnt offerings to YHWH from the people were voluntary:

And YHWH called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto YHWH, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before YHWH.
Leviticus 1:1-3
 
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2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again, my God may humiliate me before you, and I will grieve for many of those who previously sinned and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and licentiousness that they have practiced.


Paul is afraid that some of the Corinthians didn't repent of their sins and aren't saved.
 
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Jesus' words are life for EVERYONE the same.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,…
 
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Theo102 said:
Burnt offerings to YHWH from the people were voluntary:

And YHWH called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto YHWH, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before YHWH.
Leviticus 1:1-3
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The people had to sacrifice animals.

There is more than one reason for animal sacrifices.
 
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Theo102

The blood of animals did not take away their sins but God told the people to do it for the forgiveness of sins. See Hebrews 9:22.

The sacrifice of animals made the people ceremonially clean.

Hebrews 9:13
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean,


Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
 
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thborn

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Theo102 said:
That would depend on whether on not what you had faith in was consistent with those ideals.
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Yes. There is only one Truth, and one true reading of Scripture. I don't go for relativism. This true reading synthesizes all major themes in Scripture, and is understandable by anyone who desires to believe. Yet, it certainly contains deeper theological elements for the more scholarly. And it is also certainly difficult for many to understand because it goes against the world and fallen human nature. What is this one true reading? That, I think, is the #1 purpose of any serious theological debate among Christians...with an emphasis on understanding what must happen in order for one to gain eternal life with Christ. There can be a difference in emphasis among true Christians...God fashioned each of us differently, so some of us may feel that God's grace works more often through dramatic spiritual transformations and others may emphasize the way it leads to a life of service...but all believe in the same things: grace, repentence, being born again, growth in holiness, etc. Logically there must be one core orthodox message if there is to be One Body in Christ.

Christ is the Lamb (as in the book of Revelation, probably elsewhere), and there is only one Christ. After Jesus, or at least after the fullness of the Gospel was preached to Jews and Gentiles, nobody had to sacrifice animals anymore to be put right with God. As you show in the quotes you give, God has at many times asked people to turn to Him completely rather than using any other gift, sacrifice, or ritual to make peace with Him. This is fullfilled in Christ.

I'm not exactly sure about your argument is, or if is meant in a grave, earnest matter, or in a more light and intellectual manner (which is not necessarily wrong), so please forgive me if I have gone of on any tangents not related to the main flow of your thought.

Theo102 said:
Ignoring text that doesn't agree with your beliefs is a lot like cherry-picking the facts that don't disrupt your model of the world. It's not a great strategy if you want to be rational about it.
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Agreed, that was the point I was making. This is what I used to do before I really understood the idea of justification by faith.

Theo102 said:
In the original context of the covenant the blood was symbolic, and sacrifice was repudiated by several of the prophets:

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13
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Yes, it was symbolic. But, obviously, Jesus' death was real, and his blood was real. And it accomplished something real. Theologically speaking, did God have to do this? I think no is the right answer. But He did it, so that His free gift could go out to Jews and Gentiles. All of this ties in to a consistent theme throughout scripture. There may be some difference in terms of one or two rules that Jews need to follow and Gentiles don't. Something for me to look into further...I know I don't have every answer.
 
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Theo102

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God's Truth said:
blood of animals did not take away their sins but God told the people to do it for the forgiveness of sins. See Hebrews 9:22.
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The writer of Hebrews wasn't a prophet like Isaiah.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:18

God's Truth said:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
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In the context of Leviticus 17 sacrifices were to be made upon a specific altar relating to a specific people.
 
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Theo102

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thborn said:
But, obviously, Jesus' death was real, and his blood was real. And it accomplished something real. Theologically speaking, did God have to do this? I think no is the right answer. But He did it, so that His free gift could go out to Jews and Gentiles. All of this ties in to a consistent theme throughout scripture. There may be some difference in terms of one or two rules that Jews need to follow and Gentiles don't. Something for me to look into further...I know I don't have every answer.
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What is obvious isn't necessarily true, for example man going to the moon. The short story is that the technical challenges (especially the hazard posed by the van Allen radiation) could not be overcome by NASA in the sixties, so their elites faked it rather than admit defeat. One of the proofs is that there's no hypergolic flame evident for the ascent stage leaving the lunar module, another is the short communications response time.

The idea of a free gift is first expressed as a light to the Gentiles, which is associated with the idea of judgement (Isaiah 42:1-6); i.e. there's no such thing as a free lunch.

The idea of constancy is expressed here:

For I am YHWH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachai 3:6

One of the qualities of YHWH is justice/righteousness:

For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Palm 11:7

Tying together the ideas of justice and judgment, the inconsistency between that and the idea of an innocent man being crucified as part of a divine plan is pretty stark. Adding the repudiation of sacrifice by the prophets and the alternative expression of the sign relating to the crucifixion, there's grounds for testing the idea that the crucifixion isn't what it seemed to be, IMO.
 
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Theo102 said:
Neither the old covenant nor the new covenant relate to persons.

For YHWH ... regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deuteronomy 10:17
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This is taking scripture out of context.

Deu 10:15-16 KJV Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. (16) Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.​

Got back to the drawing board and learn what that passage actually means.
 
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Theo102 said:
What do you think the correct context is for "regardeth not persons"?
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God is telling Israel not to be proud, even though He chose them and separated them from other people.

Deu 10:16-19 KJV Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. (17) For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: (18) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. (19) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.​
 
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