Thanks Bob

[Granite]

That I'm afraid is the problem. Too many people here are stuck to their own views. I gave Alan Keys a fair chance but the man is completely unconstitutional. He will only solve the abortion problem short term.

On this we completely agree.

 

[PKevman]

That I'm afraid is the problem. Too many people here are stuck to their own views. I gave Alan Keys a fair chance but the man is completely unconstitutional. He will only solve the abortion problem short term.

You misquoted me. I was referring to the ludicrous idea that the US government or George Bush plotted or in any way planned the 9-11 attacks on America. Of that you and your dad would never be able to convince me because it did not happen.

 

[Granite]

I sincerely doubt you are really interested in ever even suspecting otherwise or speculating for half a second. There are some things in the world too horrible to contemplate.

 

[S†ephen]

Sop, I have come to the conclusion for some time now, that abortion was done on purpose, the Roe v Wade thing, the Colorado state legalizing it to push it to the feds, and this is a global agenda to wipe us out. Eugenics anyone? And the plan is Chinas policy will be moved worldwide.

I have no doubt that population control is on the agenda of those who run the world. David Rockefeller admitted it. However, they won't wipe us out. We're the hamsters who keep the wheel turning.

 

[sopwith21]

Now how would you feel if I said, "I'm not your secretary"?

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest, because I already have a very good idea of what the Iraqi people really want. I've been following public opinion in Iraq closely for years. I am asking you to share your sources because it will force you to find information on the subject and research it yourself.

The point was that Saddam was a wicked and brutal tyrant, and should not be condoned.

So answer the question... what number of dead Iraqis is low enough to fit into your belief threshold?

Why do you continue to defend him?

What, precisely, have I said to defend Saddam Hussein? The fact that US armed forces have killed far, far more innocent Iraqis than Saddam did is not a defense of Saddam. It is, however, a challenge to Americans to look in the mirror and have the courage to find out and accept what is really being done by their country. If anyone here is defending wickedness and killing, it is not me.

They were the direct result of the thousands who died here in the attack on American soil. Most know that attack as 9-11.

The crazies brought the war to us, and we took the war back to them.

What does that have to do with 1.2 million dead Iraqis who didn't fly a jet into a building?

Stand up with me and lets reach some folks for Christ here on TOL. I'd love to have you as a witnessing ally here instead of debating Ron Paul for 30 pages with you.

The only reason we were ever debating Ron Paul here at all is because he was maliciously attacked and lied about, claiming him to be "pro abortion" and "pro homosexual" and other equally ridiculous and false claims.

It was clear from the first page of this thread that you would never support Ron Paul regardless of anything anyone said... that was never the issue. I would have been perfectly happy if you had just chosen another candidate. The issue was the outright lies and misinformation that was being spread about him.

 

[sopwith21]

I can say categorically, emphatically, 100% without a doubt [/B]that every bit of so-called evidence that the US government or George W. Bush plotted or had one thing to do with the attack on 9-11 is bogus and should be rejected.

Based on what?

Islamic terrorists working for Osama Bin Laden hated America and have hated America for years due to our pro-Israel stance among other things.

Like dropping bombs on their children, overthrowing their governments, manipulating their currency, and occupying their countries with 250,000 troops on 702 military bases in 141 nations.

I don't care to debate the subject because it's a worthless dead-end topic.

Sooner or later you say that on almost every subject.

I'm sorry, but you and your dad will never in a million years convince me of that

That's what I've been trying to tell you for ten pages, but you keep insisting that you're open minded.

Which one of you is right... Kevin or Kevin?

 

[sopwith21]

I sincerely doubt you are really interested in ever even suspecting otherwise or speculating for half a second. There are some things in the world too horrible to contemplate.

Precisely. Germans kill lots of people, but we're special! We don't! And when we do, its okay because we're special!

Iraqis kill lots of people, but we're America... we're special. Russia and China take away freedom, but we have lots of it and could never lose it... we're special.

We can do a few small bad things here and there, but its impossible and unthinkable for us to act like... like... well, like every other nation in the human race.

We're too special.

 

[sopwith21]

Things that inquiring minds are still waiting to hear:

· What about 3,200 parents who are about to be sent to prison for not drugging their children in accordance with state mandates… are they or are they not fighting a straw man?

· You said that Americans have the ability to act without permission and that anyone who disagreed with you was "paranoid." Do you stand by that statement or not?

· If you really have the ability to act without permission, are you willing to drive without your license from now on?

· You said that you would investigate Bush’s lies about Saddam having WMD’s and read the congressional reports, and research the false allegations that Saddam “refused” weapons inspections. What has your investigation revealed and how far along are you?

· You said that you would research Alan Keyes’ pro-abortion position when the mother’s life was in danger. Have you finished your research and what were the results, and do you still support this pro-abortion candidate?

 

[genomax]

I have found this thread very entertaining since I’ve read this whole thing from the beginning and I’ve been thinking how best to implement the strategy to stop abortion in our country. I agree with Stephen on this one, Ron Paul certainly has a great bill for the state and by attacking this issue state by state we will bring this back in to our control. Alan Keyes, who sounds heartfelt and moving but doesn’t seem to have any substance, is probably not going to get anything accomplished. Any body that gets in as a republican will now be pitted against Congress which is full Democrat. Not that it matters, Congress was full republican and what did it accomplish over the last 7 years? Oh, that’s right a WAR...
I’m also looking at Thompson as he is also pro-life and will put this as a state issue as well.

Sopwith, I think the casualties of the Iraq war are possibly exaggerated? The highest estimate I’ve seen is about 655,000 which is incredible! This including all of Iraq civilian casualties within the last 4-5 years, life in Iraq is dismal at best, and probably a living hell!

Granite’s comments are the most revealing and pointed I’ve seen. He reminds me of the way my wife looks at this whole contrived mess.

 

[drbrumley]

Based on what?

Like dropping bombs on their children, overthrowing their governments, manipulating their currency, and occupying their countries with 250,000 troops on 702 military bases in 141 nations.

Sooner or later you say that on almost every subject.

That's what I've been trying to tell you for ten pages, but you keep insisting that you're open minded.

Which one of you is right... Kevin or Kevin?

Let me add Sop if you don't mind?

Kevin,

I don't know one way or the other if the United States Government actually carried out 9/11. I would certainly hope not! My problem with you guys is you think we are incapable of it. And that is wrong. Maybe you should read the declassified Operation Northwoods where the governments plan was to murder innocents. Or Operation Gladio. Or the CFR's Rebuilding Americas defenses. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself.

 

[PKevman]

Let me add Sop if you don't mind?

Kevin,

I don't know one way or the other if the United States Government actually carried out 9/11. I would certainly hope not! My problem with you guys is you think we are incapable of it. And that is wrong. Maybe you should read the declassified Operation Northwoods where the governments plan was to murder innocents. Or Operation Gladio. Or the CFR's Rebuilding Americas defenses. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself.

I've read, watched, seen, examined, and poured over tons of things well-intentioned people have sent me over the past few years claiming our government plotted the 9-11 attacks. I worked side by side with a guy who was a hard core democrat, and despised George W. Bush. We worked night shift and listened to internet broadcasts of various news and political talk all night long, and we talked politics, religion, and everything in between. I would suffer through his listening to left-wing broadcasts and losers like Al Franken. He would suffer through listening to my right-wing programs, even Bob Enyart Live.

All in all we had an enjoyable time working together despite our differences, and believe it or not it was an atmosphere very productive to the type of work we were doing. (Analyzing energy usage for our customer locations at night)

My friend Sopwith's BIG problem is that he thinks that anyone who disagrees with him could never have spent any amount of time examining his foolproof evidence.

The reason I said it was a worthless argument is because I have wasted enough time in my life on these so-called "Smoking guns" that come along. Every one of them has been debunked, disproven, and downright trod upon. The only thing one is left with is the great desire to believe the US government planned 9-11, and thus the next great "Smoking gun" obscure British video that comes along will be heartily lept upon as proof positive, and any voices to the contrary soundly ignored.

Sorry, but I'm not the one that ignores evidence here.

 

[PKevman]

Things that inquiring minds are still waiting to hear:

· What about 3,200 parents who are about to be sent to prison for not drugging their children in accordance with state mandates… are they or are they not fighting a straw man?

Stephen, you really need to get this straight: I have never denied that there are wicked things our government does. You can save your time and effort. I for one find my time to be a more and more precious commodity. I know you do as well based upon what you told me the other day. The government is wicked. All governments run by men wind up corrupt and wicked, no matter how well-intentioned they might begin. So instead of bringing up all of these incidents of the government doing wicked things, why not discuss the topic at hand? The fact is that none of this excuses Ron Paul's strategy of allowing "Do not murder" to be decided locally, either by city or by state. On the subject of the murder of innocent babies there should be one law for our entire country: DO NOT MURDER!
THIS is what this debate is about! I will not agree to a strategy that does anything less than outlaw this wickedness permanently.

You said that Americans have the ability to act without permission and that anyone who disagreed with you was "paranoid." Do you stand by that statement or not?

Nice try. I never said that anyone who "disagreed with me" was paranoid. I refuted your position by showing that there are many things that we do every single day of our lives without "getting permission".

If you really have the ability to act without permission, are you willing to drive without your license from now on?

:rotfl: Restrictions on who can and cannot drive are a good thing Stephen. This was also responded to in depth, and you waited a few days to try to throw in a sidestep. Are you interested in driving down a highway where 10 year olds that cannot even reach the gas pedals can drive? Are you willing to drive down a highway where people who are convicted of drunk driving repeatedly can drive with no repercussions if they are caught?

Please tell us all that you favor no restrictions whatsoever on drivers licenses!! This is kindergarten stuff. As DrBrumley well pointed out, getting licenses and having some regulations on things isn't bad.

·You said that you would investigate Bush’s lies about Saddam having WMD’s and read the congressional reports, and research the false allegations that Saddam “refused” weapons inspections. What has your investigation revealed and how far along are you?

It's been a few days, but between work, ministry, family, and everything in between, not very. Do you have a problem with that? What is my timetable for completing it to your satisfaction, oh high and mighty one? :bow:

·You said that you would research Alan Keyes’ pro-abortion position when the mother’s life was in danger. Have you finished your research and what were the results, and do you still support this pro-abortion candidate?

For the longest time, I have been pretty sure you have blatantly ignored a lot of what I have said in this thread in response to what you have said, and only focused on little things here and there that you think you can refute or argue with. In the meantime, I have responded to you point by point, post after post. I know you're busy, but I am too. The reason why I say this is because I actually already answered this question not too long ago. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed it, but here it is again. Alan Keyes is a staunch pro-life advocate, and thankfully has changed his position on this subject from the quotes you mentioned that dated back to the mid-1990's. I'd say it's a good thing if he repented and had a change of heart about that particular issue, wouldn't you?

 

[sopwith21]

Sopwith, I think the casualties of the Iraq war are possibly exaggerated? The highest estimate I’ve seen is about 655,000 which is incredible! This including all of Iraq civilian casualties within the last 4-5 years

The 655,000 number that you refer to was produced by a study from Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health, and I appreciate the fact that you have at least begun to study the topic and research the information available.

The study was released last October, based on information gathered over the previous months dating back to late 2005 and using data techniques widely accepted for international surveys. The US federal government funded this study but when the deaths in Iraq turned out to be far greater than they expected, they attempted to distance themselves from it and deny the results.

More accurate and recent information is now available from Britain ORB, which has found that 1.2 million Iraqis have actually died as a result of the American invasion as of September 2007. This survey was done based on 1,461 adult experiences among Iraqi civilians and extrapolated to the Iraqi population and adjusted by local morgue statistics, per capita local populations and known deaths.

I encourage you to continue your study on this topic until you are satisfied that you have a good understanding of how many people are being killed, tortured and maimed with your tax dollars, regardless of whether you agree with me or not. It is a difficult truth to face, but every Christian - in fact, every decent human being - has that responsibility.

And before anyone claims that this survey cannot be accurate, please remember that deaths in World War II and Viet Nam were calculated using the exact same methods.

Did you question those statistics as well?

 

[sopwith21]

Stephen, you really need to get this straight: I have never denied that there are wicked things our government does.

But that wasn't the question, was it? Let me ask again...

What about 3,200 parents who are about to be sent to prison for not drugging their children in accordance with state mandates… are they or are they not fighting a straw man? Answer the question. I'll give you a hint... it could either be "yes" or "no."

Nice try. I never said that anyone who "disagreed with me" was paranoid. I refuted your position by showing that there are many things that we do every single day of our lives without "getting permission".

But that wasn't the question, was it? You can mince over the exact wording all day, but you did, in fact, say that Americans have the ability to act without permission and that (any belief to the contrary) was "paranoid." Do you stand by that statement or not? Answer the question.

Restrictions on who can and cannot drive are a good thing Stephen.

But that wasn't the question, was it?

If you really have the ability to act without permission, are you willing to drive without your license from now on? Answer the question.

It's been a few days, but between work, ministry, family, and everything in between, not very. Do you have a problem with that? What is my timetable for completing it to your satisfaction, oh high and mighty one? :bow:

You did promise to do this... didn't you? And I believe it is reasonable to expect you to do as you say you will do. So forget my timetable... you set it. When will you get started on this? I will not hold you to anything that you do not claim for yourself. You set the timetable. Agreed?

Alan Keyes is a staunch pro-life advocate

Alan Keyes supports the death of a child to save the mother's life. The current statement on his current web site now says:

"Medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child, except as an unintended consequence of efforts to save the mother's physical life, are impermissible."​

Keyes openly admits that in cases where both lives cannot be saved, that "medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child" are permissible to save the mother's life. You have insisted that the only acceptable pro-life position is to save both.

Do you still support this pro-abortion candidate?

 

[S†ephen]

Alan Keyes supports the death of a child to save the mother's life. The current statement on his current web site now says:

"Medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child, except as an unintended consequence of efforts to save the mother's physical life, are impermissible."​

Keyes openly admits that in cases where both lives cannot be saved, that "medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child" are permissible to save the mother's life. You have insisted that the only acceptable pro-life position is to save both.

Do you still support this pro-abortion candidate?

TRUTHSMACKED :the_wave:

 

[Lighthouse]

Alan Keyes supports the death of a child to save the mother's life. The current statement on his current web site now says:

"Medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child, except as an unintended consequence of efforts to save the mother's physical life, are impermissible."​

Keyes openly admits that in cases where both lives cannot be saved, that "medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child" are permissible to save the mother's life. You have insisted that the only acceptable pro-life position is to save both.

TRUTHSMACKED :the_wave:

You both are complete idiots. You can't even read.

"Medical procedures resulting in the death of the unborn child, except as an unintended consequence of efforts to save the mother's physical life, are impermissible."

 

[S†ephen]

You both are complete idiots. You can't even read.

:baby:

 

[Lighthouse]

:baby:

Oh stop whining, you little baby!

 

[Granite]

Oh, the irony.

 

[genomax]

The study was released last October, based on information gathered over the previous months dating back to late 2005 and using data techniques widely accepted for international surveys. The US federal government funded this study but when the deaths in Iraq turned out to be far greater than they expected, they attempted to distance themselves from it and deny the results.


I encourage you to continue your study on this topic until you are satisfied that you have a good understanding of how many people are being killed, tortured and maimed with your tax dollars, regardless of whether you agree with me or not. It is a difficult truth to face, but every Christian - in fact, every decent human being - has that responsibility.

:duh: My Bad, looked at last years stats. I understand that this war is well on the way to eclipsing both death tolls of the Vietnam and Korean wars combined.

And before anyone claims that this survey cannot be accurate, please remember that deaths in World War II and Viet Nam were calculated using the exact same methods.

Did you question those statistics as well?

Yes I did