Tell Me Again How Public Schools are Cesspools of Atheism

[Clete]

I think that each citizen should arrange their own shoes for their own children. Home shoes for all!

I presume that you're okay with the idea of someone getting really good at making shoes and deciding to exchange his surplus shoes for something else of value so that not everyone has to spend the time it takes to make shoes for themselves - yes?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What specifically do you want taught?

American history.

Um.....all judges are required to uphold and enforce Supreme Court decisions. That's why they're called the Supreme Court. This is high school government class stuff.

That's what I said.

You fail to realize a judge's limitation of power.

In the Kim Davis case, the Supreme Court had ruled that states cannot deny same-sex couples the ability to marry, because it violated their Constitutional rights. Thus, once the ruling was issued, when same-sex couples went into a government office and requested a marriage license, there was no longer a legal basis for refusing to give them one.



So in Kentucky, when Kim Davis refused to issue a marriage license to a same-sex couple, they sued her in federal court for violating their Constitutional rights. The judge agreed with them and issued a say, temporarily preventing Davis from refusing to issue marriage licenses. Davis tried to appeal that, but the 6th Circuit unanimously denied it. Davis then appealed to the Supreme Court, but they refused to hear her appeal. This effectively ended Davis' attempt to continue to stop issuing marriage licenses. Yet she adamantly refused to issue any.

So Judge Bunning issued a court order for Davis to begin issuing marriage licenses again. She refused, so Judge Bunning found her in contempt of court and had her jailed.

So you see, no judge created new laws.

Dude, this is a complete mess.

There's so much wrong in that, it's not worth the time it would take to correct it all. Suffice to say, I'm sure you'll be stamping your feet and shouting at the TV as this case progresses and it doesn't go the way you think it should.

IOW, you can't.:wazzup:

As explained above, no judge made any new laws. Try and get the basic facts of a situation straight before you start to debate it.

All you did was make a mess.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

LOL.

Here, educate yourself.

"After the Revolution, an emphasis was put on education, especially in the northern states, which rapidly established public schools. By the year 1870, all states had free elementary schools."

You're discounting a hundred years of no government forced education.

The Revolutionary war was 100 years before 1870, so Clete saying your argument doesn't hold water still applies.

Pay close attention. I said it was in the nation's interest to have an educate populace. If you think being educated is not in your best interest, I'll let that speak for itself.

Nobody's disputing that.

The dispute is over whether the government's interest takes precedent over the right of the people.

I know you don't like or listen to this guy, but never the less try and learn something here.

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson

 

[Clete]

The public school system in any form similar to what we know today did not exist until the mid to late 19th century.


The History of Education in America

It (public schooling) was not responsible for the brilliance of the founding fathers.
It was not responsible for the brilliance of those business men who built America from nothing to true greatness.
I was not responsible for the unimaginable influx of people from all over the world to these shores.

It, if anything, has been the undoing of all of those things!

You do not need the government! Not for your schooling, not for your shoes, not for your food, not for your health care, not for anything other than protection from the thug who would take what belongs to you by force.

But thanks, in large measure, to the public school system, we've accepted and even helped to put in place a government which is itself the thug we need protection from.

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." - Ayn Rand

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Tambora]

The public school system in any form similar to what we know today did not exist until the mid to late 19th century.


The History of Education in America

It (public schooling) was not responsible for the brilliance of the founding fathers.
It was not responsible for the brilliance of those business men who built America from nothing to true greatness.
I was not responsible for the unimaginable influx of people from all over the world to these shores.

It, if anything, has been the undoing of all of those things!

You do not need the government! Not for your schooling, not for your shoes, not for your food, not for your health care, not for anything other than protection from the thug who would take what belongs to you by force.

But thanks, in large measure, to the public school system, we've accepted and even helped to put in place a government which is itself the thug we need protection from.

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." - Ayn Rand

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thank you, Clete, for all your posts on this.
Makes one think.

 

[Jose Fly]

The vast majority of schools in this country while often funded by a pool of money (sometimes taxes but usually not) they were not controlled by the government. They were controlled by the parents of the students in that school.

Nice moving of the goalposts there.

This was an irrational response. It seems you didn't understand what I said. It doesn't matter.

Yes, I can see how someone such as yourself doesn't understand how an educated populace is a good thing.

I really don't care what you think.

Hey, we finally agree on something! :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Nice moving of the goalposts there.

I haven't moved the goal post. If you didn't understand what I support and what I don't, how is that my problem?

The government has no right and no proper role in educating children - period. The government doesn't have its own money, it has to take money from those who earn it (by force) in order to give away to someone else who didn't earn it. It's theft! Not only that but they force me to be a "beneficiary" of their theft.

If, however, a group of private citizens want to voluntarily pool their money to provide their children an education then that's their right!

Yes, I can see how someone such as yourself doesn't understand how an educated populace is a good thing.

This is a genuinely idiotic thing for you to have said.

What was the point of spouting such stupidity? Who are you trying to convince, yourself? I don't get it.

If you support public education then make an argument! I have! I also posted an argument from an atheist. Why not respond to the arguments instead of showing off your asininity?

Of course, in order to do that, you'll have to have actually read the arguments and understood them.

Hey, we finally agree on something! :chuckle:

It isn't about me though, is it?

If you aren't going to contribute to the discussion in some rationally coherent manner then why do you bother to show up here in the first place? I can't imagine how bored I'd have to be to spend my time coming here attempting to get the stupid post of the day award.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Thank you, Clete, for all your posts on this.
Makes one think.

You're quite welcome!

Unfortunately, they seem to be mostly getting ignored though.

I'm considering starting a new thread with Rand's public education argument at center stage. I want to give this thread a bit more time before I do though.

 

[Tambora]

You're quite welcome!

Unfortunately, they seem to be mostly getting ignored though.

I'm considering starting a new thread with Rand's public education argument at center stage. I want to give this thread a bit more time before I do though.

Wonderful. I look forward to it.

 

[Jose Fly]

I haven't moved the goal post.

Yeah you did. You first argued that the US "became great without a public school system", but after I showed that one of the very first things the states did after independence was set up public schools, rather than admit your error you changed to "they weren't controlled by the government" (another unsupported assertion on your part).

That's been the extent of this discussion. You make assertions with no evidence, wave away inconvenient facts, and call everyone who disagrees with you stupid. That's why I don't take you at all seriously.

The government has no right and no proper role in educating children - period. The government doesn't have its own money, it has to take money from those who earn it (by force) in order to give away to someone else who didn't earn it. It's theft! Not only that but they force me to be a "beneficiary" of their theft.

I'm sure that's what you believe, but that only matters to you. Yours is an extreme minority belief that has almost no public support, and thus virtually zero chance of ever being enacted.

If you support public education then make an argument!

I have. It's in the national interest to have a well-educated populace, and the best way to ensure that is a public school system. If you disagree, then show a country that relies on a private system and gets better results.

I have! I also posted an argument from an atheist. Why not respond to the arguments instead of showing off your asininity?

You copied someone else's arguments....so what? Any 10 year old can do that.

 

[ok doser]

... I showed that one of the very first things the states did after independence was set up public schools...

well, no

educate yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States

 

[Jose Fly]

I already posted that. From that link...

"After the Revolution, an emphasis was put on education, especially in the northern states, which rapidly established public schools. By the year 1870, all states had free elementary schools.[44] The US population had one of the highest literacy rates at the time."

 

[ok doser]

I already posted that. From that link...

"After the Revolution, an emphasis was put on education, especially in the northern states, which rapidly established public schools. By the year 1870, all states had free elementary schools.[44] The US population had one of the highest literacy rates at the time."

right, they began the process shortly after the revolutionary war

it didn't become universal and spread beyond limited urban centers until after the civil war

 

[Jose Fly]

Yep, almost immediately after independence there were public schools, a system which spread across the country. That directly contradicts Clete's claim that the US became a great nation without public schools.

 

[ok doser]

Yep, almost immediately after independence there were public schools, a system which spread across the country. That directly contradicts Clete's claim that the US became a great nation without public schools.

we didn't become a great nation until after the civil war?

because universal public schooling was a post civil war phenomenon

 

[Jose Fly]

we didn't become a great nation until after the civil war?

because universal public schooling was a post civil war phenomenon

Did Clete say "universal public schooling", 'cause I don't remember that. I remember him saying "This country became the greatest nation in the history of the world without a public school system", which as we've seen, is wrong. :think:

 

[The Horn]

How the heck does this have anything to do with "atheism "? The problem is that our schools are supposed to be SECULAR institutions whose job is to educate kids whose parents belong to ALL faiths, as well as atheists and agnostics .
They are supposed to be places for TEACHING , not preaching .
For your information, there have also been numerous incident of kids who were NOT Christians who were harassed by teachers and principals for refusing to participate in Christian prayer & Bible readings, as well as condemned for not being Christians and the victims of blatant attempts at proselytizing .
Teachers and principals ave absolutely no right to do this !
No kids are being told they "must be atheists " and cannot or should not be Christians .
If parents want to put their kids in private Christian schools, they should do so at their own expense .

 

[Jose Fly]

How the heck does this have anything to do with "atheism "?

Fundamentalists have a tendency for black/white thinking. Under that framework, if the schools aren't preaching any religion, then they must be promoting atheism. There is no middle ground for them.

The problem is that our schools are supposed to be SECULAR institutions whose job is to educate kids whose parents belong to ALL faiths, as well as atheists and agnostics .
They are supposed to be places for TEACHING , not preaching .

Why....that's just crazy talk! :chuckle:

 

[Ben Masada]

How the heck does this have anything to do with "atheism "? The problem is that our schools are supposed to be SECULAR institutions whose job is to educate kids whose parents belong to ALL faiths, as well as atheists and agnostics .
They are supposed to be places for TEACHING , not preaching .
For your information, there have also been numerous incident of kids who were NOT Christians who were harassed by teachers and principals for refusing to participate in Christian prayer & Bible readings, as well as condemned for not being Christians and the victims of blatant attempts at proselytizing .
Teachers and principals ave absolutely no right to do this !
No kids are being told they "must be atheists " and cannot or should not be Christians .
If parents want to put their kids in private Christian schools, they should do so at their own expense .

I absolutely agree with you Horn, as long as the treatment be the same to non-Christian parents who demand that their children be thought that human beings originated from the monkey. They must attend private schools at their own expenses. I am as well against proselytism of any sort.

 

[Jose Fly]

I absolutely agree with you Horn, as long as the treatment be the same to non-Christian parents who demand that their children be thought that human beings originated from the monkey. They must attend private schools at their own expenses. I am as well against proselytism of any sort.

How exactly do you think science curricula should be set?