You believe a baby can grow older and NOT sin. We are born in sin. Of course a newborn baby is not yet a sinner technically but will be without question. Why do you think that is?
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- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Children are saved in the same manner as all other people: through faith in the finished work of Christ to atone for their sins.
I believe I know where you want to go next. What about when an infant (let's go even further and say child in the womb) dies? The only Biblical answer to that is found in Romans 9:19-24: "You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
I believe I know where you want to go next. What about when an infant (let's go even further and say child in the womb) dies? The only Biblical answer to that is found in Romans 9:19-24: "You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
A newborn may not have committed sin, but they are still guilty of sinfulness (that is, having a sinful nature) because of our union with Adam (the orthodox doctrine of original sin).
YAY, I did figure it out correctly!
This would be a good debate.
I hope a TOL members volunteers to debate the opposing view.
I look forward to it.
:thumb:
I hope ya'll take it slow and really delve into some points with details.
I'll mention some questions that might pop up in the debate so you can be prepared for them.
A better way to phrase that is to say that original sin causes us to be born without sanctifying grace, and sanctifying grace is necessary to enter heaven. Baptism infuses a baby with sanctifying grace.
Sometimes the term "stain of original sin" is used. That term can be misleading. A stain implies a "thing" whereas original sin is actually the lack of a thing, sanctifying grace.
The vessels of wrath and mercy is the whole of Israel.
Of the same lump, Israel & Judah has been both blessed and then cursed several times, and destroyed and then build up several times.
glorydaz
Well-known member
"ME" was not the one "in sin". The babe was fearfully and "wonderfully made".
Yep - as Paul well notes in Romans 7 "sin REVIVED..."
In other words "sin THAT DWELLETH IN me."
That is to say "ANOTHER law IN MY MEMBERS..."
The same indwelling sin (nature) that Paul instructs the Believer...
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
For in your mortal body it dwells.
Which is why the body is...mortal.
Duh - uh.
In remembrance of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in EACH our STEAD.
glorydaz
Well-known member
A three month old baby being "angry". :rotfl:
That's about as silly as it comes. Babies were created by God to cry when their needs were not met. Let's blame God for crying babies now. :nono:
That's absolutely not Biblical; it is a heresy of Rome.
Yes, babies cry when their needs are not met. But babies also cry out of anger. My daughter cries when she can't reach a toy, which makes her angry.
Right, that's a natural understanding of the verse in context (51:1-4 clearly talking about David's personal sin), but who cares about exegesis any more?
Seriously? Why does Paul apply the same logic in the preceding verses to Pharaoh (who clearly was not a Jew)?
It absolutely IS Biblical. It is also believed by almost ALL Christians, be they Coptics, Eastern Orthodox, Traditional Anglicans, Catholics, and others as well.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Not so sure you can broad brush with needs.
They can also get cantankerous about them wants, too.
Exactly, as anger is an emotion experienced and expressed when some standard is not only perceived, but perceived as having not been met.
And babies - God love em - are unaware they are forming standards and perceptions of standards and rules about when said standards are met or not.
Thus, their tantrums and their crying - so friggin loud!
:rofl:
Because they don't yet know any better.
They're ever preciously making up their little rules about what's what, not only as they go, but unaware that they are.
From the moment they leave the womb...
God love em!
Rom. 5: 6-8.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Not so sure you can broad brush with needs.
They can also get cantankerous about them wants, too.
Same thing to a baby. Any baby....even baby Jesus was like all babies everywhere.
No, true Christianity does not say that baptism "infuses" grace. That is a lie propagated by Rome. Only the Holy Spirit gives grace.
Just because anger is an emotion does not make it right. Lust is an emotion also, but it is not right. Again, Ps. 51:5 is explicit.
Except without sin.