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Adam's Trial Period in the Garden

Adam's Trial Period in the Garden

Thanks for responding, AMR. :)


Except for one minor detail. Adam sinned while in that supposedly uncorrupt or unfallen nature. And where do you get the idea that he was "in his probation".
God gave him but one command. Implied therein was the promise of eternal life and communion with God should he keep the command. We are not told how long he had to demonstrate his obedience, but it was soon afterwards that Adam disobeyed. Do this and live was the essence of the command. A covenant of works between God and the moral creature, Adam. As discussed below, the word probation aptly describes the situation Adam was in at the time.

This doctrine of a trial period is derived from comparing Genesis 1-3 with Romans 5:12 and forward. If Christ doesn't remain in a perpetual state of trial (i.e., he is glorified), neither would Adam have: he would have been glorified had he obeyed through the probationary period. I think that's the simplest way of explaining it. It is clear that Adam broke Covenant with God and all fell in him. Moreover, we can see that the Tree of Life is a reward below:

Rev 2:7:
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 22
2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Both trees had a sacramental function. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TKGE) was a tree NOT to be eaten of. The nature of that sacrament was negative—as Adam obeyed God, he would gain "Godlike" understanding of good and evil. God, after all, knows evil himself NOT experimentally either, that is, knowledge by negation.

The Tree of Life (ToL) would have functioned in a manner similar to the other sacramental meals (Passover, Communion). By partaking with God, man would be confirmed or strengthened in his faith. I do not think that eating of the Tree of Life was a kind of "portal" to eternal life.

We do not know 1) how long the period of probation would have been, or 2) actually was. Nor 3) do we know whether Adam ever had his first taste of the ToL—I tend to think "never", because I think the fall happened soon. But even if this supposition is incorrect, and Adam did have at least one fellowship meal prior to the fall, that would simply show that a single meal was not finally "confirmatory".

I do think the notion of a trial period, hence probationary, is a necessary implication derived from two facts:
1) That Jesus obedience on our behalf is that period of his earthly life, that is, a specified period. His ongoing mediation is an application of obedience and sacrifice already wrought for us, not MORE obedience for us.
2) That we are not promised restoration to the Adamic condition, but to a superior condition in which another Fall is impossible. Therefore, Adam would also have awareness that his creation state, being mutable, was less perfect or desirable than an impeccably immutable one.

It is not impossible to conceive of an interminable status of "do this and live," and certainly our present, fallen condition makes the thought of that prospect somewhat wearisome—more so than if we were currently perfect actors. But all the same, it is vain to ignore the sheer goodness of God made evident in the potential elimination of an impediment to endless bliss, namely its mutable character. Even if by "practice" of holiness the likelihood of falling were reduced to statistical insignificance, the difference between "able to fall" and "not able to fall" is the difference between servanthood and sonship. It is not a thing one could ever work for within the bounds of creaturehood, either. It would have to be a matter of divine raise.

I would not hesitate (In other words, I would teach it as a truth) to call the man's first estate in the Garden "probationary", that is, temporary with the prospect of glory. I believe it adds immeasurably to our appreciation of the whole concept of the story of Redemption. While it compounds Adam's failure, it also compounds Christ's saving efficacy.

I don't agree the term "in Adam" is talking about anything other than being in a body of flesh....a natural human being.
Not quite following the grammar there. You do not agree that "in Adam" implies just being in a body of flesh? Nor do I. I suspect you meant to say, that you consider "in Adam" to mean only to refer to being in a body of flesh. If so, to disagree with that last bit is to do injustice to the parallels Paul draws between the First and the Second Adam in Romans 5:12-21, 1 Cor 15:48-49, Php. 3:21, and 1 John 3:22. Being "in Adam" is a moral and physical state of being. So is being "in Christ".

AMR
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Nope.

In the lost, the fruits (plural) are the result of their being unable to stop themselves from serving the "old man" residing within and thus the descriptive "the body of sin" (sin - singular).

In contrast, in the Believer, the fruits are the result of allowing oneself to serve said old man's deceitful lusts.

You're wilfully being an incompetent: as in all behaviour in life: the lusts / desires compel the behaviour.

This is exactly why the Believer is to walk by faith and not by sight (the physical senses).

Faith in an INTELIGENT understanding of The Word - on ALL issues.

Because the flesh tempts the behaviours it would that one engage in: it tempts that through the five plus senses.

The other perceptual senses being the proprioceptive; the emotional; and the imaginary-visual systems.

Which is what this passage is describing...

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

In contrast to the Believer's new reality...

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Why?

Because if any man be in Christ, he...is...a new...creature...in...Him.

And so on.

Body of Sin / Body of Christ.

The Old man / The New.

In Adam / In Christ.

And so on...

You really need to properly restudy all these issues out, Jerry.

Rom. 5:6-8.
You really need to properly restudy all these issues out, Jerry.

Correct, D. But, then again, he is always right.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member

Now you're going to make me feel guilty because you know I cannot handle these long posts. :sigh:

Please forgive me if I try and address the two points that stand out.



God gave him but one command. Implied therein was the promise of eternal life and communion with God should he keep the command.

Exactly as we are today. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Our lifetime of eighty years is our probation period. :)


Spoiler
We are not told how long he had to demonstrate his obedience, but it was soon afterwards that Adam disobeyed. Do this and live was the essence of the command. A covenant of works between God and the moral creature, Adam. As discussed below, the word probation aptly describes the situation Adam was in at the time.

This doctrine of a trial period is derived from comparing Genesis 1-3 with Romans 5:12 and forward. If Christ doesn't remain in a perpetual state of trial (i.e., he is glorified), neither would Adam have: he would have been glorified had he obeyed through the probationary period. I think that's the simplest way of explaining it. It is clear that Adam broke Covenant with God and all fell in him. Moreover, we can see that the Tree of Life is a reward below:

Rev 2:7:
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 22
2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Both trees had a sacramental function. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TKGE) was a tree NOT to be eaten of. The nature of that sacrament was negative—as Adam obeyed God, he would gain "Godlike" understanding of good and evil. God, after all, knows evil himself NOT experimentally either, that is, knowledge by negation.

The Tree of Life (ToL) would have functioned in a manner similar to the other sacramental meals (Passover, Communion). By partaking with God, man would be confirmed or strengthened in his faith. I do not think that eating of the Tree of Life was a kind of "portal" to eternal life.

We do not know 1) how long the period of probation would have been, or 2) actually was. Nor 3) do we know whether Adam ever had his first taste of the ToL—I tend to think "never", because I think the fall happened soon. But even if this supposition is incorrect, and Adam did have at least one fellowship meal prior to the fall, that would simply show that a single meal was not finally "confirmatory".

I do think the notion of a trial period, hence probationary, is a necessary implication derived from two facts:
1) That Jesus obedience on our behalf is that period of his earthly life, that is, a specified period. His ongoing mediation is an application of obedience and sacrifice already wrought for us, not MORE obedience for us.
2) That we are not promised restoration to the Adamic condition, but to a superior condition in which another Fall is impossible. Therefore, Adam would also have awareness that his creation state, being mutable, was less perfect or desirable than an impeccably immutable one.

It is not impossible to conceive of an interminable status of "do this and live," and certainly our present, fallen condition makes the thought of that prospect somewhat wearisome—more so than if we were currently perfect actors. But all the same, it is vain to ignore the sheer goodness of God made evident in the potential elimination of an impediment to endless bliss, namely its mutable character. Even if by "practice" of holiness the likelihood of falling were reduced to statistical insignificance, the difference between "able to fall" and "not able to fall" is the difference between servanthood and sonship. It is not a thing one could ever work for within the bounds of creaturehood, either. It would have to be a matter of divine raise.


I would not hesitate (In other words, I would teach it as a truth) to call the man's first estate in the Garden "probationary", that is, temporary with the prospect of glory. I believe it adds immeasurably to our appreciation of the whole concept of the story of Redemption. While it compounds Adam's failure, it also compounds Christ's saving efficacy.


Not quite following the grammar there. You do not agree that "in Adam" implies just being in a body of flesh? Nor do I. I suspect you meant to say, that you consider "in Adam" to mean only to refer to being in a body of flesh. If so, to disagree with that last bit is to do injustice to the parallels Paul draws between the First and the Second Adam in Romans 5:12-21, 1 Cor 15:48-49, Php. 3:21, and 1 John 3:22. Being "in Adam" is a moral and physical state of being. So is being "in Christ".

Yeah, that was poorly written. Sorry.

The only place we see "in Adam" is in relation to his having an earthly body. Because of Adam, we return to the earth without hope of resurrection. Death reigns because of Adam's sin. Because of Christ, we are given that hope of a bodily resurrection.

Our being created IN CHRIST as new creatures has nothing to do with the teachings about a bodily resurrection.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Funny, in verse 20 Jesus said "By their fruits you will know them." I didn't realize that fruits came before that which produced them. See, works follow salvation, they do not proceed salvation. When the Holy Spirit regenerates the heart, then a person is able to do the will of Father. Even faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9).
In context, when Jesus is speaking of good fruit and evil fruit, He is speaking about the good and evil works a person does based on whether they are righteous or wicked inside.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

Your statements above are an evil fruit produced from a wicked heart intended to deceive people into believing the false teaching of "unconditional election" from Calvinism instead of the Biblically correct teaching of conditional salvation by grace through faith.

If we are to take your opinion on the matter, then Jesus is not ultimately the one who decides.
False, I teach that Jesus is the only one given the authority to judge us to determine if we are worthy of the gift of eternal life.

If I do the will of the Father, then I am the one securing my salvation.
You are claiming that you can buy salvation by your works, but Paul states you are wrong.

Romans 4:4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.​

You can only receive eternal life from grace and grace is only given to those who please God.

However, if doing the will of the Father is a fruit, then there has to be something which produces that fruit, which would be regeneration.
What produces fruit is the free will God gave us from the beginning.
Regeneration follows repentance, it does not precede it.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member

Again:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

The LORD will not impute a sin to anyone unless a person knows that what is is doing is wrong. That is why James says what he says. A person must first know the difference between what is good and what is not before a sin will be imputed to him.

And babies do not know the difference between what is good and what is bad. The LORD will not impute sin to a baby.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Not quite following the grammar there. You do not agree that "in Adam" implies just being in a body of flesh? Nor do I. I suspect you meant to say, that you consider "in Adam" to mean only to refer to being in a body of flesh. If so, to disagree with that last bit is to do injustice to the parallels Paul draws between the First and the Second Adam in Romans 5:12-21, 1 Cor 15:48-49, Php. 3:21, and 1 John 3:22. Being "in Adam" is a moral and physical state of being. So is being "in Christ".

At least you see a parallel between the words "in Adam" and "in Christ."

And since there is a parallel then it becomes obvious that no one is automatically "in Adam" any more than anyone is "in Christ" automatically. According to the parallelism a person has to do something to be "in Christ" so to be logically consistent a person must do something before he is considered to be "in Adam."

To be "in Christ" a person must believe and to be "in Adam" a person must sin.
 

tdhiggins

New member
In context, when Jesus is speaking of good fruit and evil fruit, He is speaking about the good and evil works a person does based on whether they are righteous or wicked inside.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

Your statements above are an evil fruit produced from a wicked heart intended to deceive people into believing the false teaching of "unconditional election" from Calvinism instead of the Biblically correct teaching of conditional salvation by grace through faith.


False, I teach that Jesus is the only one given the authority to judge us to determine if we are worthy of the gift of eternal life.


You are claiming that you can buy salvation by your works, but Paul states you are wrong.

Romans 4:4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.​

You can only receive eternal life from grace and grace is only given to those who please God.


What produces fruit is the free will God gave us from the beginning.
Regeneration follows repentance, it does not precede it.

Well, we all learned that you are very skilled at twisting words and miscontruing simple ideas. Of course, that was already obvious from your treatment of the text.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Well, we all learned that you are very skilled at twisting words and miscontruing simple ideas. Of course, that was already obvious from your treatment of the text.
I am not twisting the concepts from the Bible, that was done by Augustine the heretic and by Calvinists.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Did you not read that a person who believes "is passed from death unto life" and "hath everlasting life."
Did we not already talk about this? Did I not tell you that I thought it just as easily could refer to a changing of foregone conclusions? If we're to the rehashing point of our conversations,
I guess we can be done. I should have known that when you said you didn't want to agree to disagree, that it meant you will repeat yourself ad nauseam until everybody left reading the thread will stop arguing with you out of exhaustion.
And as the Lord Jesus said, NOW is the hour. Not later!

I thought that was Bing Crosby:

You'll have to give me a reference for where Jesus said it to see if it fits with the discussion. The best I found is Mark 14:41 and similar passages in the other gospels. But that has little to do with when eternal life starts.

I don't want to belittle the idea that today is the day of salvation (Paul in 2Co 6:2), or that we need to encourage one another to keep believing while it is yet today, as here:

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [Heb 3:12 KJV]
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [Heb 3:13 KJV]
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [Heb 3:14 KJV]


But that last one makes it sound like eternal life only happens if we hold out to the end. That's not what you were trying to say, was it?
 

marhig

Well-known member
I believe this because that is what is taught in the Scripture. All men are condemned because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18). All people are born and conceived with sinful natures (Ps. 51:5). Sinful actions are not what get people in hell. Sinful nature is why people are in hell. Naturally, we are enslaved to our sin, we cannot not sin (as Augustine would say). We commit sins because we are sinful, not the other way around.

As to why, the answer is simple. Sin is evil, regardless of the age. That is why Paul would list disobedience to parents as a sin worthy of hell. Sin is a rebellion against God, and therefore deserves to be punished to the utmost severity. I do not know why Adam represented us before God in the garden. What I do know, is that the Scriptures plainly assert it. And who are we to talk back to God? If He has destined some for mercy and some for wrath, that is His right as Creator and Sovereign.

I believe this because that is what is taught in the Scripture. All men are condemned because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18). All people are born and conceived with sinful natures (Ps. 51:5). Sinful actions are not what get people in hell. Sinful nature is why people are in hell. Naturally, we are enslaved to our sin, we cannot not sin (as Augustine would say). We commit sins because we are sinful, not the other way around.

As to why, the answer is simple. Sin is evil, regardless of the age. That is why Paul would list disobedience to parents as a sin worthy of hell. Sin is a rebellion against God, and therefore deserves to be punished to the utmost severity. I do not know why Adam represented us before God in the garden. What I do know, is that the Scriptures plainly assert it. And who are we to talk back to God? If He has destined some for mercy and some for wrath, that is His right as Creator and Sovereign.

Where in those verses does it say that babies and children go to hell? Or that all children go to hell except the elect children?

Also, the verses saying about being disobedient to parents isn't talking about little children, but adults. We can be disobedient to our parents at any age, and we have a father in heaven whom we can be disobedient to when we are an adult if that's what we choose to do!

2 Timothy 3

For MEN shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

It is also has the same meaning in Romans 1. And there is nothing whatever there about little children going to hell.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Did we not already talk about this? Did I not tell you that I thought it just as easily could refer to a changing of foregone conclusions?

You said that but if it is easy to imagine that the Lord Jesus was only speaking of a foregone conclusion then I am sure that other theologians came to the same conclusion. Can you quote even one recognized theologian who says that?

In regard to Hebrews 3:14 the Greek word (metochoi) translated "partakers" might be more literally rendered "partners". One of the meanings of that Greek word is "a partner (in a work, office, dignity)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The role of the "work" of "serving" the Lord, like the privilege of serving in the priestly house (v.6), is dependent on continued fidelity. This verse is not speaking of eternal salvation but instead about serving the Lord Jesus. We can see that the reference to "house" in the following verses are in regard to service":

"And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end"
(Heb.3:5-6).

By the "context" we can see that the Son's own house refers to His Priestly "service" (Heb.2:17; 3:1).
 

Derf

Well-known member
You said that but if it is easy to imagine that the Lord Jesus was only speaking of a foregone conclusion then I am sure that other theologians came to the same conclusion. Can you quote even one recognized theologian who says that?
Ah! so you are conceding that you have no other biblical remedy, and that now you must look to others.
I guess that's a pretty big step.

But your means, while no doubt not meant for error, leads one to error. Shall I look to theologians like Joseph Smith? He's "recognized". And once I pick a theologian to appeal to, you would be right to question that theologian's views. And how would you attempt to validate or refute that theologian's views? By scripture, of course. So we would be right back here after umpteen more posts.

Shall we skip that loop?

I can tell you that I'm not following a particular theologian's views in my line of reasoning. That doesn't mean there aren't any that hold this view, but I don't see a point in searching for something that is further removed from the source (scriptures) anyway.

In regard to Hebrews 3:14 the Greek word (metochoi) translated "partakers" might be more literally rendered "partners". One of the meanings of that Greek word is "a partner (in a work, office, dignity)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The role of the "work" of "serving" the Lord, like the privilege of serving in the priestly house (v.6), is dependent on continued fidelity. This verse is not speaking of eternal salvation but instead about serving the Lord Jesus. We can see that the reference to "house" in the following verses are in regard to service":

"And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end"
(Heb.3:5-6).

By the "context" we can see that the Son's own house refers to His Priestly "service" (Heb.2:17; 3:1).

Ok. Then when the chapter ends with a warning about unbelief, saying that unbelievers will not enter into God's rest, you are saying that refers to those that are partakers (partners?) of Christ? A partner of Christ can be an unbeliever? That's odd.

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. [Heb 3:19 KJV]
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Shall I look to theologians like Joseph Smith?

Any recognized theologian which you want. If it is so easy to recognize your theory then surely at least one theologian would see it. If you can't even quote one then your argument is weakened. According to the Scriptures the receiving of eternal life happens the moment when a person believes.

It is not delayed according to the Scriptures but your entire argument is based on a theory that it is delayed.

Then when the chapter ends with a warning about unbelief, saying that unbelievers will not enter into God's rest, you are saying that refers to those that are partakers (partners?) of Christ? A partner of Christ can be an unbeliever? That's odd.

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. [Heb 3:19 KJV]

The words at Hebrews 3:19 are not about those who received the book of Hebrews but instead the children of Israel who came out of Egypt who did not enter the promised land. That provides absolutely no evidence that anyone who received the book of Hebrews did not enjoy eternal security because they were sanctified by the blood of the Lord Jesus and were therefore "perfected forever":

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ..For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified"
(Heb.10:10,14).​

Are you going to argue that at that time they had not yet been sanctified and they had not yet been perfected forever?

Good luck!
 

Derf

Well-known member
Any recognized theologian which you want. If it is so easy to recognize your theory then surely at least one theologian would see it. If you can't even quote one then your argument is weakened. According to the Scriptures the receiving of eternal life happens the moment when a person believes.

It is not delayed according to the Scriptures but your entire argument is based on a theory that it is delayed.
How about Matt Slick: https://carm.org/dictionary-eternal-life He gives two usages of the term eternal life. The second is the one I'm talking about:
Second, eternal life will reach its final state at the resurrection of the believers when Christ returns to earth to claim His church. It is then that eternal life will begin in its complete manifestation--especially seen in that man will no longer sin.

You can see that if eternal life means you don't die, but you really do die, then the eternal life must not have been the one that was already being experienced. Thus, he calls it the "complete manifestation". The initial manifestation was "incomplete" eternal life, or one that includes some death, ironically.

The words at Hebrews 3:19 are not about those who received the book of Hebrews but instead the children of Israel who came out of Egypt who did not enter the promised land.
You mean the ones Paul talks of in 1 Cor 10:4? The ones that drank of Christ, our Rock?
That provides absolutely no evidence that anyone who received the book of Hebrews did not enjoy eternal security because they were sanctified by the blood of the Lord Jesus and were therefore "perfected forever":

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ..For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified"
(Heb.10:10,14).​

Are you going to argue that at that time they had not yet been sanctified and they had not yet been perfected forever?

Good luck!
If he had perfected them forever by the one offering, then He must have perfected them before they were born, because that offering was made before they were born. Are you suggesting that they were sanctified and perfected before they were born? How then could they ever sin? And since this only applies to believers, they that have not been born have already believed, too.
 

Danoh

New member
Don't know!

It was a rhetorical.

And, you might challenge Musti or STP - both (backed by Sherman) were each hot to get me involved in some long, drawn out debate to the same old end result, in the end - nowhere.

But hey, if you're up for the time that kind of long, drawn out sort of thing takes; have at it with them.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5: 6-8
 
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