ECT Studying how the NT uses the OT

[tetelestai]

My hair is a mess, but the doctrine I speak is sound (Titus 2:1 KJV) unlike yours that changes with the winds (Ephesians 4:14 KJV).

The Romans completely refute your "two programs" theory.

You know it, that's why you refuse to address it.

It's why you always do your disappearing act when Romans is brought up. Not to mention how you run and hide when Galatians/2 Peter 3 is brought up.

If your doctrine was sound (your claim) you wouldn't run and hide when you can't defend it.

 

[tetelestai]

Is any of this in the prophets?


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Dispensationalists claim the above verses are all yet future, and can be found in the OT.

Full preterism teaches the verses were fulfilled in 70AD, and like the Dispies, they claim the same prophecies can be found in the OT.

Partial preterism teaches that the verses are yet future, and the prophecies cannot be found in the OT.

IMO, the prophecies could not have been fulfilled in 70AD because there were no Saints in Jerusalem when it was surrounded by the Romans. All the Saints had fled to the mountains like Jesus had told them to do when they saw the Romans surround the city.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Dispensationalists claim the above verses are all yet future, and can be found in the OT.

Full preterism teaches the verses were fulfilled in 70AD, and like the Dispies, they claim the same prophecies can be found in the OT.

Partial preterism teaches that the verses are yet future, and the prophecies cannot be found in the OT.

IMO, the prophecies could not have been fulfilled in 70AD because there were no Saints in Jerusalem when it was surrounded by the Romans. All the Saints had fled to the mountains like Jesus had told them to do when they saw the Romans surround the city.

So, none of it is in the prophets?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Romans completely refute your "two programs" theory.

No, the epistle to the Romans confirm that two different programs of God can be found in the Bible. Here we see one program of God where the Gentiles will be saved through Israel when the LORD will endow that nation with spendor:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5).​

According to this program the Israelites in Jerusalem will be the "light of the world:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.24:14-16).​

Since the Israelites rejected the Lord Jesus they are not now the light of the world and their fall was the beginning of a different program of God:

"Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious" (Ro.11:11).​

This purpose of God in regard to bringing the Gentiles to salvation is based on Israel's transgression while the following purpose is based on the truth that LORD will endow that nation with spendor:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5).​

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment can see the differences between these two purposes of God in regard to bringing the Gentiles to salvation.

 

[tetelestai]

two different programs of God can be found in the Bible.

The Old Covenant

The New Covenant

It's really that simple.

You Darby followers make it complicated because Darby didn't understand the transition from the OC to the NC, and the mysteries involved.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The Old Covenant

The New Covenant

It's really that simple.

You Darby followers make it complicated because Darby didn't understand the transition from the OC to the NC, and the mysteries involved.

What about those that came before the old covenant?

 

[tetelestai]

So, none of it is in the prophets?

How did I not answer your question?

I told you some people believe they are and some don't.

If you want to claim there are, then just make your case?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

How did I not answer your question?

I told you some people believe they are and some don't.

If you want to claim there are, then just make your case?

Which do you believe?

 

[tetelestai]

What about those that came before the old covenant?

That's always a good question.

Noah new which animals were clean and which one's weren't.

Noah also built an alter and sacrificed burnt offerings from clean animals to the Lord.

They definitely weren't under the NC, that's for sure.

 

[tetelestai]

Which do you believe?

It's a really tough passage.

As a partial preterist, I lean to they are all future, and cannot be found in the OT.

The part about surrounding the camp of the Saints (the beloved city) is confusing to me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's really that simple.

Why did you not even attempt to address what I said?

I challenge you to prove that anything I wrote is in error!

The Romans completely refute your "two programs" theory.

No, the epistle to the Romans confirm that two different programs of God can be found in the Bible. Here we see one program of God where the Gentiles will be saved through Israel when the LORD will endow that nation with spendor:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5).​

According to this program the Israelites in Jerusalem will be the "light of the world:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.24:14-16).​

Since the Israelites rejected the Lord Jesus they are not now the light of the world and their fall was the beginning of a different program of God:

"Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious" (Ro.11:11).​

This purpose of God in regard to bringing the Gentiles to salvation is based on Israel's transgression while the following purpose is based on the truth that LORD will endow that nation with spendor:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5).​

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment can see the differences between these two purposes of God in regard to bringing the Gentiles to salvation.

 

[tetelestai]

Here we see one program of God where the Gentiles will be saved through Israel when the LORD will endow that nation with spendor:

That would be the OC

However, the Israelites/Jews didn't do their part. Other than Jonah, you won't find too many passages about Israelites/Jews being a light to the Gentiles.

Since the Israelites rejected the Lord Jesus they are not now the light of the world and their fall was the beginning of a different program of God:

You skipped a lot of history.

Israel split into two nations (Judah & Israel). God divorced the Israelites from the 10 tribes, scattered them, told them they were not a people, and had no mercy on them.

The Jews returned to Jerusalem, rebuilt the temple, enjoyed some peaceful years, then turned from God, and then rejected the Messiah God had sent them.

This purpose of God in regard to bringing the Gentiles to salvation is based on Israel's transgression while the following purpose is based on the truth that LORD will endow that nation with spendor:

Where you fail is that a remnant of Jews believed in the Messiah, and the New Covenant was made.

The Gentiles became fellow heirs with the remnant of Jews in all the promises. There is now one new man in Christ. There is no longer Jew and Gentile.

Because the NC was promised to the House of Israel (remember them, they are the Israelites that were divorced from God?) these Israelites (who for the most part could not be distinguished from a pagan Gentile) was how all Israel was saved.

Because those Israelites had been divorced from God, and because Jesus had the full deity of God (Col 2:9), those Gentiles (who were descendants of the 10 tribes) could not have the gospel preached to them until Christ Jesus died, otherwise it would have been an abomination. Paul explains this in Romans 7. Which also explain how the Romans were Gentiles, but at the same time descendants of Abraham in the flesh.

Old Covenant
New Covenant

It's really that simple

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That would be the OC

Of course you were unable to prove that anything that I said about there being two purposes of God during the LORD's dealing with men. you ssaid:

Where you fail is that a remnant of Jews believed in the Messiah, and the New Covenant was made.

The new Covenant will not be made until all those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah will have their sins forgiven:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

 

[tetelestai]

Of course you were unable to prove that anything that I said about there being two purposes of God during the LORD's dealing with men.

You just pretended to be correcting me but you never mentioned anything specifically which I said that is error.

Everything you said was in error.

Once again:

Old Covenant
New Covenant

Darby was so far off into left field about the two covenants, he had to invent the "secret parenthetical dispensation", and people like you have bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

Only Darby followers believe in a "secret parenthetical dispensation". You won't find it anywhere in the Bible.

 

[heir]

The Romans completely refute your "two programs" theory.

Nope

 

[heir]

Only Darby followers believe in a "secret parenthetical dispensation". You won't find it anywhere in the Bible.

Here's one


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


It's called the dispensation of the gospel.


1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.



And here's another. It's called the dispensation of the grace of God.


Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Everything you said was in error.

Just because you say that means nothing!

Once again:

Old Covenant
New Covenant

Again, if the New Covenant was in effect now then all those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah would have their sins forgiven:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

Of course you will just ignore this passage because you always ignore it!

Darby was so far off into left field about the two covenants, he had to invent the "secret parenthetical dispensation", and people like you have bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

Only Darby followers believe in a "secret parenthetical dispensation". You won't find it anywhere in the Bible.

"and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:9; ASV).​

 

[tetelestai]

Again, if the New Covenant was in effect now then all those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah would have their sins forgiven:

Everyone alive today has their sins forgiven.

Christ Jesus paid the price for all sins, for all time.

All sins have been paid for with the one time sacrifice by the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
that mystery was the veil of Judaism, 2 Cor 3-5, eph 2B-3B. Everything went through the Law, was embedded in the Law, so that even the missionaries that Judaism sent out made a person follow it to harshly and strictly, Mt 23.

It was only when Paul and others realized that the righteousness for justification from sin was being provided in Christ not through the law that the veil disappeared. Everything the OT was saying was meant to spotlight Christ, rom 16's finale.

 

[heir]

Everyone alive today has their sins forgiven.

Yep.

Christ Jesus paid the price for all sins, for all time.

All sins have been paid for with the one time sacrifice by the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

Yep, yet the timing of the atonement for those in the Body of Christ is that we have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV) while Israel waits for it (Acts 3:19-21 KJV. Romans 11:26-27 KJV).