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What's not realistic about the scenario?allsmiles said:
Now, come on; you say the scenario is up to me (yes, I know this is addressed to Bob) and I was nice enough to give you one. Now you complain. If you don't like it, you make your own scenario.
Saintopher
New member
This discussion has reminded me of a really bad Tom Cruise movie called Minority Report.
If you haven't seen it, the premise is that they are able to find out about crimes before they happen and hence be able to prevent them by apprehending the impending criminal before the act was committed. That seems to me what this homo hunt would be all about.
What is most interesting in light of the idea of Open Theism's view that God can change his mind- In Leviticus, homosexuality was a sin/crime that was punishable by death...yet Isaiah and Jeremiah say that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not because they had homos, but because of their lack of care for the poor, needy, outcast...basically social injustices. So it seems like God "changed his mind" to not be as concerned about who was getting jiggy with who as much as he cared about people being cared for.
:think:
If you haven't seen it, the premise is that they are able to find out about crimes before they happen and hence be able to prevent them by apprehending the impending criminal before the act was committed. That seems to me what this homo hunt would be all about.
What is most interesting in light of the idea of Open Theism's view that God can change his mind- In Leviticus, homosexuality was a sin/crime that was punishable by death...yet Isaiah and Jeremiah say that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not because they had homos, but because of their lack of care for the poor, needy, outcast...basically social injustices. So it seems like God "changed his mind" to not be as concerned about who was getting jiggy with who as much as he cared about people being cared for.
:think:
GuySmiley
Well-known member
Ok, the atheist are just dying for someone to say that we would hunt down homos and bust into their bedrooms but no one will say that because its not what is believed. But you, Saintopher, just jump to that conclusion because its what you'd like to believe. Where has anyone mentioned a homo hunt? You must have been itching to use your Minority Report comparison but you didn't have the patience to wait for someone to actually say they'd hunt down homos with burning brooms.Saintopher said:
This is probably the most stupid thing I've ever heard said about the Open View. Congratulations.
Saintopher
New member
GuySmiley said:
You're right. Perhaps it was stupid...but how do you know me well enough to know if I was just waiting to use something? Sheesh. Some of you guys take yourselves way too seriously.
Either way, the FACT is that theonomy will never occur here in America. It never has and it never will. Too many humans involved so I guess the reality of it is how utterly pointless it is to argue the issue.
pentatonic145
New member
I didn't say I think homosexual behavior should be legal - it should be illegal. But I don't condone giving the death penalty to people caught in homosexual sin, or other sexual sins (except maybe pedophelia or rape). Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery; he pardoned her and said "Go and sin no more". If God really wants a homosexual to die, then he doesn't need our help: He can remove his hand of protection from them and allow them to reap AIDS for the sexual sin that has been sown. Of course, the same is true for heterosexuals who engage in fornication or adultery.Jefferson said:
I'll tell you something about homosexuals: Their sins are no worse than my own sins and they need mercy from the same God that showed me mercy. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. I'm glad that when I was sinning against God by using heroin and lying and stealing and sharing needles, God protected me from drawing the wages of my sin, which is death, disease and prison. He revealed himself to me and now I'm born again: a new man, a different person. I believe that is God's will for all sinners, homosexuals included. I believe Christ looks on them as "harrassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd".
Saintopher
New member
Jefferson said:
My apologies, it was from Ezekiel 16
49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
So here you see that Sodom was proud, gluttonous, lazy, unwilling to help the poor and needy, arrogant. Yes, it also says that they committed abominations; but go back into the Mosaic Law and see what all is an abomination to God.
[I'll give a hint- Read Deut. 25:16, and then read Romans 3:10,11] :Letsargu:
Saintopher
New member
pentatonic145 said:
:BRAVO:
Very well said sir.
PureX
Well-known member
Unfortunately, as we are finding out with rape cases and the use of DNA evidence, eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable. We humans see what we expect to see more often than we see what's actually there. It's not that we mean to wrongly accuse people - we think we're telling the truth, but in truth we haven't accurately recognized what happened. Ask any cop who has taken eye-witness statements at the scene of an accident, and you will find amazingly different accounts from people who are not intending to mislead anyone.
That's problem #1.
Problem #2: Unfortunately, there are people among us who will lie willingly to get other people wrongly convicted for the feeling or power and righteousness that they get from it. There was a small town in Texas some years back that went on a drug bust frenzy, led by a crooked cop, who wrongly convicted most of it's black population of selling dope. It was a modern witch-hunt, focussed on the most vulnerable group available, and fueled by the same psychosis that exists in people in every town, everywhere. Human history is full of such occurrances and if we allow them to occur, they will. Of this there can be no doubt.
If Bob Enyart's religious autocracy were ever to be established, there in no doubt in my mind that the kind of people who whent on the "witch-hunt" in Texas will quickly seek and assume power in Enyart's world, and will soon become our worst nightmare. History has shown us time and time again that if these kinds of people can do this, they will do this.
Problem # 3: I believe Bob Enyart IS ONE OF THESE PEOPLE, and this is why he promotes such an idiotic and dangerous form of government. But I don't fear lunatics like Enyart nearly as much as I fear ignorant and resentful citizens who might allow themselves to be coerced into accepting his nightmare as reasonable. There is a strain of self-destructive perversity within the human species that sometimes manifests itself in the collective self-destruction that such insane religious or political fascism proposes. Most of the time, we humans know better than to entertain such ridiculous and destructive nonsense, but there are occasions when we seem to collectively lose our minds and determine ourselves to follow such a path.
And the only way I know of, of countering such a danger is to keep pointing it out and speaking out against it.
That's problem #1.
Problem #2: Unfortunately, there are people among us who will lie willingly to get other people wrongly convicted for the feeling or power and righteousness that they get from it. There was a small town in Texas some years back that went on a drug bust frenzy, led by a crooked cop, who wrongly convicted most of it's black population of selling dope. It was a modern witch-hunt, focussed on the most vulnerable group available, and fueled by the same psychosis that exists in people in every town, everywhere. Human history is full of such occurrances and if we allow them to occur, they will. Of this there can be no doubt.
If Bob Enyart's religious autocracy were ever to be established, there in no doubt in my mind that the kind of people who whent on the "witch-hunt" in Texas will quickly seek and assume power in Enyart's world, and will soon become our worst nightmare. History has shown us time and time again that if these kinds of people can do this, they will do this.
Problem # 3: I believe Bob Enyart IS ONE OF THESE PEOPLE, and this is why he promotes such an idiotic and dangerous form of government. But I don't fear lunatics like Enyart nearly as much as I fear ignorant and resentful citizens who might allow themselves to be coerced into accepting his nightmare as reasonable. There is a strain of self-destructive perversity within the human species that sometimes manifests itself in the collective self-destruction that such insane religious or political fascism proposes. Most of the time, we humans know better than to entertain such ridiculous and destructive nonsense, but there are occasions when we seem to collectively lose our minds and determine ourselves to follow such a path.
And the only way I know of, of countering such a danger is to keep pointing it out and speaking out against it.
Based on what verse?pentatonic145 said:
Based on what verse?
Based on what verse?
The story of the woman caught in adultery, forgiven and released (John 8:3-11) does not negate the death penalty. Gomer was an adulteress yet God forgave her (Hos. 3:1). Still, He demanded that His people obey His law (Hos. 4:6). King David committed adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11). Yet God forgave him (Psalm 32:1-5).
It was a conscious decision on God’s part to not execute David. As Nathan said to David: "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However… by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme…" (2 Sam. 12:13). Still, God’s law remained in effect (Ps. 1:2; 19:7; 78:1, 5-8; 89:30-32; 119). God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. However, Men must obey God and cannot ignore carrying out His required punishments He delegated to those in authority.
So why did Jesus not advocate she be executed? The answer is because the Pharisees wanted to accuse Jesus of rebelling against the Roman Empire: "This [the Pharisees] said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him." (John 8:6). Rome had revoked the Jews’ authority to put a criminal to death (John 18:31). A straight-forward answer to the Pharisees would have brought Jesus into premature conflict with Rome before His "hour had come." Jesus thwarted their attempt to trick Him by stating, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first" (John 8:7). Christ often frustrated the Pharisees giving clever answers that thwarted their wicked intentions (Mat. 22:15-22; 21:21-27; Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-26). This is just another example of that. It is not Christ officially declaring the death penalty for adultery to be nullified.
Sure, He can but He decided to delgate that task to governing authorities: "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain (Romans 13:4).
The Bible says not all sins are equal: Matthew 11:21-22 says, "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Luke 12:47,48 says, "And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
And . . .
John 19:11 says, "Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
This is also how God looks at sinners: Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all doers of iniquity.
Psalm 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalm 11:5 Jehovah tries the righteous; but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. I will drive them out of My house for the wickedness of their doings. I will love them no more; all their rulers are revolters.
Zechariah 11:8 I also cut off three shepherds in one month. And My soul loathed them, and their soul also detested Me.
Leviticus 20:23 And you shall not walk in the ways of the nation which I cast out before you. For they committed all these things, and therefore I loathed them.
Proverbs 16-19 These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among the brethren.
pentatonic145
New member
Jefferson - do you agree with Bob's constitution? Do you feel that homosexuals deserve the death penalty?
soothsayer
New member
Homosexuals deserve for us to leave them alone.
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