Standing Up To Jehovah's Witnesses

KingdomRose

New member
Jesus is God even in the NWT.







Show us...





Since when is Yahweh mentioned in the NWT?





Where?






So...

Now you just confirmed what I just said....you witnesses always revert back to your NWT as the supposed 'reference'...

Jesus is NOT God "even in the New Testament." Preposterous. And YHWH is not mentioned in the NT because he was taken out by early copyists, due to religious bias. Surely if it was because of the name not appearing at all, the copyists would have at LEAST kept it in the text when there were QUOTATIONS from the Old Testament. The many quotations that Jesus spoke, for example, were from OT verses that DID include the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). This can be proven by consulting any Hebrew Tanakh that includes the English alongside. Why irradicate the name of God in THOSE instances?

A shortened version of God's name is used in "Hallelujah".....wherever you see that in the NT. So all remnants of His name have not been destroyed in the NT. (Rev.19:1,3,4,6) Hallelujah! PRAISE JEHOVAH.

It would be conducive to a meaningful discussion if you would CAREFULLY read the posts before making assertions that are far from true.
 

KingdomRose

New member
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


The Lord Jesus is YHVH tsidkenu.

No he is not.

Jesus came as Jehovah's REPRESENTATIVE. How could the Creator of the universe come down to this speck of dust in one of the galaxies? He could not, as Solomon recognized at 2 Chronicles 6:18.

Jehovah sent His Son to carry out His will, as Jesus said many times. John 1:18 tells us that that is true, because "no one has seen God at any time," and it was told to Moses that "no one may see Me and live."

If Jesus is Jehovah, please explain PSALM 110:

"Jehovah said to my Lord the Messiah, 'Rule as my regent---I will subdue your enemies and make them bow low before you.'"

This is not from the NWT....it is from The Living Bible.

 

Apple7

New member
Jesus is NOT God "even in the New Testament." Preposterous.


Let’s review two verses from Revelation which will put your 'Jesus is not God/Christ is a created creature' assertion to rest...


λεγοντες φωνη μεγαλη αξιον εστιν το αρνιον το εσφαγμενον λαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιαν και ισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιαν και παν κτισμα ο εν τω ουρανω και επι της γης και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης [εστιν] και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

legontes phōnē megalē axion estin to arnion to esphagmenon labein tēn dynamin kai plouton kai sophian kai ischyn kai timēn kai doxan kai eulogian kai pan ktisma ho en tō ouranō kai epi tēs gēs kai hypokatō tēs gēs kai epi tēs thalassēs kai ta en autois panta ēkousa legontas tō kathēmenō epi tō thronō kai tō arniō hē eulogia kai hē timē kai hē doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn

Saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing in Heaven, and upon the earth, and underneath the earth, and upon the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power forever and ever. Rev 5.12 - 13


These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus.

All ‘pan’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them – thus, all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.


Jesus is not a created creature..

He is worshipped as the creator.

See the error of your ways?


Look at the doxology in Rev 5.12…

λεγοντες φωνη μεγαλη αξιον εστιν το αρνιον το εσφαγμενον λαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιαν και ισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιαν

The TSKS rule applies directly to this verse and mandates that this doxology is devoted entirely to Jesus.

This doxology includes:

• Power
• Wealth
• Wisdom
• Strength
• Honor
• Glory
• Blessing


This, then, imputes deity to Jesus.



Rev 5.13 declares the Trinity loud and clear for us, as it once again uses the very same singular attributes and ascribes them to both Theos and Jesus at the same time, as thus:


• Singular eulogia (blessing)
• Singular timē (honor)
• Singular doxa (glory)
• Singular kratos (power)


Absolutely no distinction is made in deity between Theos and Jesus!

Both are listed, but are given singular praise.

This is even further born-out in Rev 5.14.
 

Apple7

New member
Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

A shortened version of God's name is used in "Hallelujah".....wherever you see that in the NT. So all remnants of His name have not been destroyed in the NT. (Rev.19:1,3,4,6) Hallelujah! PRAISE JEHOVAH.

And after these things, I heard a great voice of a large multitude in Heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the honor and the power of the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He judged the great harlot who defiled the earth with her fornication. And He avenged the blood of His slaves out of her hand. And a second time they said, Hallelujah! Also her smoke goes up to the ages of the ages. And the twenty four elders, and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah! And a voice came out from the throne, saying, Praise our God, all His slaves, and the ones fearing Him, the small and the great. And I heard as a sound of a numerous crowd, and as a sound of many waters, and as a sound of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah! Because the Lord God Almighty reigned. (Rev 19.1 – 6)

A close reading of the text informs the reader that the term ‘Hallelujah’ (i.e. Praise Yahweh) is proclaimed by the large multitude (i.e. the Righteous in Heaven), not once (Rev 19.1), not twice (Rev 19.3), but three separate times (Rev 19.6).

This is in keeping with the Three Person; One Being Triune God formula already established in scripture.

Now that the Father, Son and Spirit have been established and are worshiped by The Righteous; a separate confirmation of this singular truth is proclaimed by the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures (Rev 19.4).

Yet another Biblical proof that the One God is Triune and His Righteous worship Him as Triune.

Further, Rev 19 is about The Son, of which, can only mean that His name is Yahweh, as the Hallelujah is towards Him.

The doxology contained in Rev 19.1 – 2 pertains to Jesus, and, as we already know, these epithets have already been applied to Jesus numerous times in scripture.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


The Lord Jesus is YHVH tsidkenu.

No he is not.


[/U][/U]

Jeremiah says He is.
 

KingdomRose

New member
So...

I heard that if you are not a 'witness', you cannot enter Heaven.

Well, we believe that EVERYONE alive after Jesus' Millennial Reign will accept Jehovah as God and Jesus as His Son (the means by which Jehovah saves.)

We believe that the Bible says that. Everyone who does not accept God and His Son will find themselves being cast into the lake of fire---which SYMBOLIZES the second death from which no one will return....non-existence. Everyone who claims Jehovah and Jesus as their God and Messiah could be considered WITNESSES of them. Is that objectionable?

Those going to heaven surely claim to be witnesses of God and Christ. There are many who, in the early years of Christianity, were not called "Jehovah's Witnesses." Such as Peter, Paul, and all of the early Christians. (They are in heaven now.) But they honored and worshiped Jehovah as their God and believed that Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God. Christians were not called "Jehovah's Witnesses" until 1931, to distinguish us from the false religions of the world, particularly the denominations of Christendom.

So there are many who have lived who were not called "Jehovah's Witnesses" who are even now in heaven.
 

Apple7

New member
Everyone who does not accept God and His Son will find themselves being cast into the lake of fire---which SYMBOLIZES the second death from which no one will return....non-existence.

'Non-existence' of those separated from The Creator simply does not-exist in scripture.
 

KingdomRose

New member
If you are a witness, and you were to die right now, then you should be afraid.

Very afraid.

If you deny the Triune God, then you most assuredly will be judged and spend some good quality time with Satan...


Well, I'm not afraid at all. I don't believe in the spurious triune god, and I know that if I were to die right now, I'd be resurrected into the paradise earth that Jesus will rule over for a thousand years. The passing of time will not even be noticed by me.
 

KingdomRose

New member
I don't deny Jesus is Theos, I simply don't accept that he is almighty God, YHWH.

Rules in grammar aren't inherently rules in language. I find it incredibly implausible to believe that a man who never names Jesus as God once, but yet named the Father as God over 500 times, refer to Jesus as God in a single verse. Especially when this one instance rest on a rule which was formed in the late 17th CE by a man who wanted to promote the trinity doctrine.

No, I claim that all bibles have errors. Im not going to waste my time arguing with someone who I'm quite sure shares the same belief as me. Hence the reason why o asked if you believe all bible contain errors, because if you do then what's the point in me proving something to you which you already believe.

Jesus may have been called "theos" in John 1:1, but "theos" was not given the definite ARTICLE that must precede "theos" if he is to be thought of as Almighty God.

Rules for grammar in Greek are different from those of English. Greek has no indefinite articles, so to differentiate something or someone that is THE only one, a definite article is placed before the word referring to it.

"...the word was with [HO] theos, and the word was theos." There is no other way to say "the word was a god."
 

KingdomRose

New member
Meaning that all JW's will be judged and never make it to heaven.

You will be spending eternity with your real father, Satan.

You know, I am reminded of a conversation that the Pharisees were having with Jesus. They accused HIM of having a demon!

"The Jews answered and said to him, 'Do we not say rightly that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?'" (John 8:48, New American Standard Bible)
 

Apple7

New member
Well, I'm not afraid at all. I don't believe in the spurious triune god, and I know that if I were to die right now, I'd be resurrected into the paradise earth that Jesus will rule over for a thousand years. The passing of time will not even be noticed by me.

If you believe those unscriptural thoughts, then you are stone, cold dead.
 

KingdomRose

New member
So says every Mormon that I have ever encountered.

Do you guys witness to Mormons?

Since you are both door-knockers....why not just meet each other in the street and witness away at one another...?

Exchange a BoM for a NWT.


:think:

Mormons do say that, but most of them don't even know what their own religious leaders have written into doctrine over the last 150 years. JWs are familiar with all of the goings-on of our former leaders, and all the mistakes they made which have been straightened out. Mormons still believe that Smith "translated" golden plates with his face in a hat!

Anyway, I have had Mormons in my house and welcome them when they come to my door. Most of them can't keep up with a discussion on the Bible. They don't come back, either, even when they say they'll do research and come back.
 

Apple7

New member
Mormons do say that, but most of them don't even know what their own religious leaders have written into doctrine over the last 150 years. JWs are familiar with all of the goings-on of our former leaders, and all the mistakes they made which have been straightened out. Mormons still believe that Smith "translated" golden plates with his face in a hat!

Anyway, I have had Mormons in my house and welcome them when they come to my door. Most of them can't keep up with a discussion on the Bible. They don't come back, either, even when they say they'll do research and come back.


You both have your cookie-cutter cultic replies.
 

KingdomRose

New member
So...

If the various English translations are in agreement....why is it witnesses still deny Jesus' deity?

Because, as I said, every Bible there is is agreeing on the fact that Jehovah is God and Jesus is His Son. The Trinity is taught in NO Bible, unless you want to take the errors of scribes or the bias of translators as evidence for the Trinity. Those few places that you cite are in abject CONTRADICTION to the rest of the Bible. This can be clearly seen if a person wants to really scrutinize what the Bible in its entirety has to say.
 

KingdomRose

New member
To Apple...in re. to posts #183,184......You are speaking with smoke and mirrors. If someone really concentrated on what you are saying they could see your precarious position. I'm not answering any more of your detritus this morning....though I probably will attempt it later on. I promised someone that I'd explain what we believe about John 1:1 and I intend to do that when I get back from a doctor's appointment. TTYL
 

WeberHome

New member
-
Depending upon one's translation of choice; Jesus Christ is described in John
1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, and John 3:18, as the only-begotten god and/or
the only-begotten son of God. Either way, the koiné Greek word for "only
begotten" is monogenes (mon-og-en-ace') which is a combination of two
words.

The first is mono, which music buffs recognize as a single channel rather
than two or four in surround sound stereo. Mono is very common; e.g.
monogamy, monofilament, monotonous, mononucleotide, monochrome,
monogram, monolith, monologue, monomial, et al.

The other word is genes; from whence we get the English word gene; which
Webster's defines as a biological term indicating a part of a cell that controls
or influences the appearance, growth, etc., of a living thing. In other words:
monogenes refers to one biological gene set rather than many.

Monogenes always, and without exception, refers to a parent's sole
biological child in the New Testament. If a parent has two or three biological
children, none of them qualify as monogenes because in order to qualify as a
monogenes child, the child has to be an only child. Obviously then, an
adopted child can never be monogenes in the home because it wouldn't be
the home's biological child. Examples of monogenes children are located at
Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, and Luke 9:38.

OBJECTION: I would submit that the monogenes is also used in the context
of "one of a kind" viz: a child who is unequalled when compared to others.
For example, it is found in Hebrew 11:17 of Isaac being Abraham's "only
begotten son." But Isaac's older brother Ishmael was also Abraham's
biological son.

RESPONSE: The objector's objection isn't a translation, rather, it's an
interpretation.

To start with, three New Testament examples of monogenes are located at
Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, and Luke 9:38, and in all three examples it refers not
to a special child, but to a parent's sole biological child.

Next I'll go to the Old Testament.

The common laws of Abraham's day (e.g. the Code of Hammurabi and the
laws of Lipit-Ishtar) entitled Ishmael to the lion's share of Abraham's estate
because he was Abraham's firstborn son. However, there was a clause in the
laws stipulating that if a slave-owner emancipated his child's in-slavery
biological mother; then the mother and the child would lose any and all
claims to a paternal property settlement with the slave-owner.

The trick is: Abraham couldn't just send Hagar packing, nor sell her, for the
clause to take effect; no, he had to emancipate her; which he did.

†. Gen 21:14 . . So Abraham got up early in the morning and took bread
and a skin water bottle and gave it to Hagar, setting it upon her shoulder,
and the child, and then dismissed her.

The phrase "dismissed her" is from the Hebrew word shalach (shaw-lakh')
which is a word used of divorce as well as for the emancipation of slaves. In
other words: Hagar wasn't banished as is commonly assumed; no, she was
set free; and it's very important to nail that down in our thinking because if
Abraham had merely banished Hagar, then her son Ishmael would have
retained his legal status as Abraham's eldest biological son.

Later, when Abraham was ordered to sacrifice Isaac; God referred to him as
the patriarch's only son.

†. Gen 22:2 . .Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and
go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of
the mountains of which I will tell you.

†. Gen 22:12 . . Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do
nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not
withheld your son, your only son, from Me.

Technically, Ishmael retained his status as one of Abraham's biological sons
(Gen 25:9) but not legally; no, his legal association with Abraham was
dissolved when he emancipated Ishmael's mother; and I sincerely believe
that is precisely how Gen 22:2, Gen 22:12, and Heb 11:17 ought to be
understood.


But aside from all that: if the Word of John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, and
John 3:18 is really and truly God's biological offspring (so to speak) then the
Watch Tower Society has a serious problem with its Christology; because if
God were to reproduce He would give birth to God; viz: more of Himself;
just was when humans reproduce they give birth to humans; viz: more of
themselves.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 

Apple7

New member
Because, as I said, every Bible there is is agreeing on the fact that Jehovah is God and Jesus is His Son. The Trinity is taught in NO Bible, unless you want to take the errors of scribes or the bias of translators as evidence for the Trinity. Those few places that you cite are in abject CONTRADICTION to the rest of the Bible. This can be clearly seen if a person wants to really scrutinize what the Bible in its entirety has to say.

The Trinity is taught all the way through the entire Holy Bible.

This is confirmed as fact in the original languages....something that you, as a witness, are unfamiliar with...
 

Apple7

New member
To Apple...in re. to posts #183,184......You are speaking with smoke and mirrors. If someone really concentrated on what you are saying they could see your precarious position. I'm not answering any more of your detritus this morning....though I probably will attempt it later on. I promised someone that I'd explain what we believe about John 1:1 and I intend to do that when I get back from a doctor's appointment. TTYL

You are really going to need a doctor after you attempt a reply to these posts.

You will come up with some lame excuse, no doubt...
 

Apple7

New member
The Trinity is taught in NO Bible,....


We have the Son proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Word (Eze 1.3)
• Also called the Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that the Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)


We have the Spirit proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Man that is portrayed in (Eze 8.1 - 3) is also mentioned in (Eze 40.3)
• The Man is a representation of the Spirit (Eze 8.2 – 3; 43.5 – 6)
• The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
• The Man and the Glory are often associated with Yahweh
• We have the Man bringing Ezekiel back to the east gate (Eze 44.1)
• Prior to this, the Man was w/Ezekiel by the east gate (Eze 43.1)


We have the Trinity proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
• The Man (The Hand of Yahweh) is the Spirit
• Yahweh is the Father
 
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