Sports Talk 2018: Lebron to Brady and Everything in Between

[tetelestai]

I never claimed to be a fan of the entire league. I want the Warriors to win as many titles as possible and the Lakers to lose as many games as possible. That makes me happy as s sports fan.

I agree with your point.

I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler's fan, not a fan of the entire NFL.

I want the Steelers to win the Super Bowl every year, and hope the 49'ers, Cowboys, and Patriots never win another playoff game (I know you're a 49'ers fan)

I have really enjoyed watching the Cowboys be irrelevant the last 25 years. If the Cowboys never make the playoffs the rest of my life, I'll be happy about that.

 

[Town Heretic]

I agree with your point.

I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler's fan, not a fan of the entire NFL.

Maybe it's because I never lived in a town with a team, or even all that close to one. At least not long enough to think of it as mine. So I adopted teams without the same sense of attachment and more as a focal point for a general interest in the sport.

 

[The Berean]

Maybe it's because I never lived in a town with a team, or even all that close to one. At least not long enough to think of it as mine. So I adopted teams without the same sense of attachment and more as a focal point for a general interest in the sport.

That is a major difference. I grew up in a small town about 100 miles south of San Francisco. Becoming a Giants/49ers/Warriors fan was simply natural. My dad used to take me and my brother to Giants' games in the late 1970's. It never crossed my mind to follow any other baseball team. The only time I ever considered changing team allegiance was in the fall of 1992 when the Giants were sold to a Florida group that was going to move the team to Tampa Bay. Thankfully, the sale was not approved.

 

[The Berean]

I agree with your point.

I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler's fan, not a fan of the entire NFL.

I want the Steelers to win the Super Bowl every year, and hope the 49'ers, Cowboys, and Patriots never win another playoff game (I know you're a 49'ers fan)

Nice! Hahaha!

I have really enjoyed watching the Cowboys be irrelevant the last 25 years. If the Cowboys never make the playoffs the rest of my life, I'll be happy about that.

You view the Cowboys how I view the Lakers. Hahaha. I despise the Lakers with the fury of a thousand suns. Their sheer arrogance and sense of entitlement is puke inducing. They are like the ancient Egyptians. Thankfully, the Hebrew slaves (Warriors) have been delivered to the promise land and righteous judgement enacted onto the Lakers. I had to put up with obnoxious Lakers fans for 25+ years as they gloated over us Warriors' fans. And we could do or say nothing about it since the Warriors were awful for like two decades. But then the deliverer, a 6'3" guard with amazing handles, was sent into the world and smited the Lakers. And now, more judgement will be cast upon the Lakers as the Clippers (of all teams!) could unseat the Lakers as LA's team. That would be joyful to watch.

 

[tetelestai]

Maybe it's because I never lived in a town with a team

I understand that due to the fact that Pittsburgh never had an NBA team. Basketball is my #2 favorite sport. I went from Dr. J and the Sixers, to Bird and the Celtics, to the Bad Boys of Detroit, to Jordan and the Bulls, to Duncan and the Spurs, to the Splash Brothers.

However, I consider myself a Celtic's fan. The spirit of Larry Bird never left me...lol

The only team I hate is the Lakers. I have NEVER rooted for them. I loved when Shaq and the Heat beat Dallas (because Shaq wasn't a Laker), but hated the Heat with Lebron. I've never been a Lebron fan, but will give him credit as maybe the best player of my lifetime.

Jordan or Lebron?

Who was/is the greatest?

 

[tetelestai]

My Dream Team:

Jordan
Bird
Lebron
Curry
Duncan

 

[tetelestai]

You view the Cowboys how I view the Lakers. Hahaha.

I hate the Lakers almost as much as you do....lol.

The only Laker I ever liked was Jerry West.

 

[The Berean]

I understand that due to the fact that Pittsburgh never had an NBA team. Basketball is my #2 favorite sport. I went from Dr. J and the Sixers, to Bird and the Celtics, to the Bad Boys of Detroit, to Jordan and the Bulls, to Duncan and the Spurs, to the Splash Brothers.

However, I consider myself a Celtic's fan. The spirit of Larry Bird never left me...lol

The only team I hate is the Lakers. I have NEVER rooted for them. I loved when Shaq and the Heat beat Dallas (because Shaq wasn't a Laker), but hated the Heat with Lebron. I've never been a Lebron fan, but will give him credit as maybe the best player of my lifetime.

Jordan or Lebron?

Who was/is the greatest?

He tet were the ABA's Pittsburgh Condors before your time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Condors

 

[Town Heretic]

My Dream Team:
Jordan
Bird
Lebron
Curry
Duncan

I'm going to go position by position...starting with point guard. I've been saying Magic for years, but you could really make the case for Oscar. Magic's court vision was as good as Birds and that's pegging out...Oscar might be better today at shooting guard.

1. Magic: 19.5 ppg, 7.2 rbs, 11.2 asts, 1.9 stls, .4 blks 6' 9", 215 lbs
2. Oscar: 25.7 ppg, 7.5 rbs, 9.5 asts, 1.1 stls, .1 blks 6' 5", 205 lbs
3. Paul: 18.5 ppg, 4,5 rbs, 9.7 asts, 2.2 stls, .1 blk 6' 175 lbs
4. Thomas: 19.2 ppg, 3.6 rbs, 9.3 asts, 1.9 stls, .3 blks 6' 1", 182
5. Curry: 23.5 ppg, 4.5 rbs, 6.6 asts, 1.7 stls, .2 6' 3", 190 lbs
6. Stockton: 13.1 ppg, 2.7 rbs, 10.5 asts, 2.2 stls, .2 blks 6' 1", 175 lbs
7. Nash: 14.3 ppg, 3.0 rbs, 8.5 asts, .7 stls, .1 blks 6' 3", 180 lbs
8. Kidd: 12.6 ppg, 6.3 rbs, 8.7 asts, 1.9 stls, .3 blks 6' 4", 205 lbs

 

[tetelestai]

but you could really make the case for Oscar.

My dad played against Oscar Robinson and Jerry West in college. He used to tell me that Oscar Robinson was the best player he ever saw.

When I played High School basketball, one of our rival coaches was a teammate of Oscar at Cincinnati. At a summer camp, he told us that in Oscar's 3 years at Cincinnati (freshman couldn't play back then), he was the leading scorer in every game he played. Cincinnati was 79-9 when Oscar played there, and went to two Final Four's.

Can you imagine being the leading scorer in 88 straight games?

 

[tetelestai]

He tet were the ABA's Pittsburgh Condors before your time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Condors

Yes, before my time. Back then, it was all about the Pirates, and the Steelers were just beginning their run.

I don't remember the Pipers (they won the first ABA Championship in 1967, I was 3 years old). They then became the Condors in 1970, and became famous when the movie "The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh" came out....lol

 

[tetelestai]

before your time?

View attachment 26830

Way before my time, were the Pittsburgh Crawfords. The Crawfords had Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell, and Josh Gibson on their team.

 

[tetelestai]

The Pittsburgh Crawfords played at the first black-built and black-owned major league baseball field in the United States.

Also, the Pittsburgh Pirates were the first MLB team to field an all black starting lineup in 1971 (they won the World Series that year)

The all black starting lineup September 1, 1971: Rennie Stennett, Gene Clines, Roberto Clemente, Willie Stargell, Manny Sanguillén, Dave Cash, Al Oliver, Jackie Hernández, and Dock Ellis.

 

[Town Heretic]

Okay, so far...

PG: Magic, squeaking a win over Oscar

Shooting Guard is next, and we all know, but I want to look anyway

1. Jordan: 30.1 ppg, 6.2 rbs, 5.3 asts, 2.3 stls, .8 blks
2. West: 27.0 ppg, 5.8 rbs, 6.7 asts, 2.6 stls, .7 blks

3. Kobe: 25.0 ppg, 5,2 rbs, 4.7 asts, 1.4 stls, .5 blk
4. Iverson: 26.7 ppg, 3.7 rbs, 6.2 asts, 2.2 stls, .2 blks
5. Harden: 24.3 ppg, 5.2 rbs, 6.2 asts, 1.6 stls, .5 blks
6. Maravich: 24.2 ppg, 4.3 rbs, 5.4 asts, 1.4 stls, .2 blks
7. Wade: 22.0 ppg, 4.7 rbs, 5.4 asts, 1.5 stls, .8 blks
8. Drexler: 20.4 ppg, 6.1 rbs, 5.6 asts, 2.0 stls, .7 blks
9. Gervin: 26.2 ppg, 4.6 rbs, 2.8 asts, 1.2 stls, .8 blks

 

[Town Heretic]

Small Forward is a hard one for me. But I think Larry would agree that along a razor thin margin, he's nudged. LeBron has uncommon strength/speed/IQ and longevity to boot. Now at his best/prime in a series, it's Larry. But the back betrayed him and he was never the defender or all around athlete that LeBron was and remained for a ridiculous number of games.

1, LeBron: 27.2 ppg, 7.4 rbs, 7.2 asts, 1.6 stls, .8 blks
2. Bird: 24.3 ppg, 10.0 rbs, 6.3 asts, 1.7 stls, .8 blks
3. Baylor: 27.4 ppg,13.5 rbs, 4.3 asts, na stls, na blks
4. Durant: 27.0 ppg, 7.1 rbs, 4.1 asts, 1.1 stls, 1.1 blks
5. Erving: 22.0 ppg, 6.7 rbs, 3.9 asts, 1.8 stls,1.5 blks
6. Wilkins: 24.8 ppg, 6.7 rbs, 2.5 asts, 1.3 stls, .6 blks
7. Pippen: 16.1 ppg, 6.4 rbs, 5.2 asts, 2.0 stls, .8 blks
8. English: 21.5 ppg, 5.5 rbs, 3.6 asts, .9 stls, .7 blks

So far then: Magic (PG), Jordan (SG), LeBron (SF)...next up? PF.

 

[Town Heretic]

And now the Power Forwards. And this ended with a surprise. I eliminated a number of very good PFs, like Hayes, Garnett, McHale, because their numbers/production on the whole just was a step down, though in their best years they were all right there.

Duncan, the "Big Fundamental" is so sound and played so perfectly in Pop's system that I think he's actually a tad overrated, when I look at production over time. A truly great player that I think is the NBA equivalent of Tom Brady in that regard. I suspect Duncan will come back a little to the pack, over time. Or he might not given the number of championship wins and the lack of those in his real challengers (so he can thank Jordan, who inhibited that particular among the best outside of Duncan. A healthy AD might take over looking at his career numbers so far, if he can secure a ring or two with the Lakers. What else...Webber was better than I remembered, probably because of the college fiasco and the injury that cost him a potential ring with the Kings.

Also, Barkley was hands down a better shooter in every respect, compared to Tim. And his numbers were better in playoff situations as well, both in production and shooting percentages. He out rebounded Tim and handed out more assists. The only thing Tim actually did better was block shots.

I didn't put AD ahead of Duncan because his sample is so much smaller at present and because of the success Tim had, but I think he's already made a case for being a better all around player than Malone or Webber.

1. Barkley: 22.1 ppg, 11.7 rbs, 3.9 asts, 1.5 stls, .8 blks
2. Duncan: 19 ppg, 10.8 rbs, 3 asts, .7 stls, 2.2 blks
3. A Davis: 23.7 ppg, 10.5 rbs, 2.8 asts, 1.4 stls, 2.4 blks
4. Malone: 25 ppg, 10.1 rbs, 3.6 asts, 1.4 stls, .8 blks
5. Webber: 20.7 ppg, 9.8 rbs, 4.2 asts, 1.4 stls, 1.4 blks


And now, waiting on the last selection of center, my team looks like this:

Magic (PG)
Jordan (SG)
LeBron (SF)
Barkley (PF)

 

[Town Heretic]

And lastly, Centers. I leave off a few great ones because I think it boils down to these three and mostly for the same reasons. Jabbar and Olajuwon could shoot free throws well enough to not be a fouled liability late in games. Wilt couldn't, but his overall game and the scope of it forces him into consideration for the top spot as well. He once decided to lead the league in assists and did it. He was a superb rebounder and I'm sure if they'd kept the stats his blks would have been equally impressive. He was LeBron plus 4 inches.

On a given day I'd take any of these three. More often than not I've given the default nod to Jabbar, but the more I consider it the more I'm inclined to take the third name on that list. His numbers are comparable, offensively, to Jabbar, and his shooting is right there, but on the defensive end the Houston great stands out a little more.

Both Jabbar and Olajuwon were 5 time all-defensive 1st team members, with Jabbar picking up 11 overall defensive team nods to Olajuwon's 9, but Olajuwon was defensive player of the year 2 times. Jabbar never managed that one.


Jabbar: 24.6 ppg, 11.2 rbs, 3.6 asts, .9 stls, 2.6 blks
Wilt: 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rbs, 4.4 asts, na stls, na blks
Olajuwon: 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rbs, 2.5 asts, 1.7 stls, 3.1 blks

And here's my all-time, first team:

Magic
Jordan
LeBron
Barkley
Olajuwon

 

[The Berean]

And now the Power Forwards. And this ended with a surprise. I eliminated a number of very good PFs, like Hayes, Garnett, McHale, because their numbers/production on the whole just was a step down, though in their best years they were all right there.

Duncan, the "Big Fundamental" is so sound and played so perfectly in Pop's system that I think he's actually a tad overrated, when I look at production over time. A truly great player that I think is the NBA equivalent of Tom Brady in that regard. I suspect Duncan will come back a little to the pack, over time. Or he might not given the number of championship wins and the lack of those in his real challengers (so he can thank Jordan, who inhibited that particular among the best outside of Duncan. A healthy AD might take over looking at his career numbers so far, if he can secure a ring or two with the Lakers. What else...Webber was better than I remembered, probably because of the college fiasco and the injury that cost him a potential ring with the Kings.

Also, Barkley was hands down a better shooter in every respect, compared to Tim. And his numbers were better in playoff situations as well, both in production and shooting percentages. He out rebounded Tim and handed out more assists. The only thing Tim actually did better was block shots.

I didn't put AD ahead of Duncan because his sample is so much smaller at present and because of the success Tim had, but I think he's already made a case for being a better all around player than Malone or Webber.

1. Barkley: 22.1 ppg, 11.7 rbs, 3.9 asts, 1.5 stls, .8 blks
2. Duncan: 19 ppg, 10.8 rbs, 3 asts, .7 stls, 2.2 blks
3. A Davis: 23.7 ppg, 10.5 rbs, 2.8 asts, 1.4 stls, 2.4 blks
4. Malone: 25 ppg, 10.1 rbs, 3.6 asts, 1.4 stls, .8 blks
5. Webber: 20.7 ppg, 9.8 rbs, 4.2 asts, 1.4 stls, 1.4 blks


And now, waiting on the last selection of center, my team looks like this:

Magic (PG)
Jordan (SG)
LeBron (SF)
Barkley (PF)

You didn't mentioned the first true power forward, Bob Petit. Petit led the 1957 St. Louis Hawks to the NBA title, the only team to defeat the Boston Celtics in the NBA finals during the Celtics legendary run. Petit was a ferocious scorer and rebounder.

 

[Town Heretic]

You didn't mentioned the first true power forward, Bob Petit. Petit led the 1957 St. Louis Hawks to the NBA title, the only team to defeat the Boston Celtics in the NBA finals during the Celtics legendary run. Petit was a ferocious scorer and rebounder.

Deserving of a place at the table, but he wouldn't challenge at the top. 26/16/3 pts, rbs, and assists. Don't know about steals and blocks because of when he played. His percentages get him into trouble. He was a sub .500 guy in the paint, where he did most of his damage. And he was 6'9" but only 205 lbs. I don't think he translates well to the modern game and among the guys I put in play.

 

[The Berean]

Deserving of a place at the table, but he wouldn't challenge at the top. 26/16/3 pts, rbs, and assists. Don't know about steals and blocks because of when he played. His percentages get him into trouble. He was a sub .500 guy in the paint, where he did most of his damage. And he was 6'9" but only 205 lbs. I don't think he translates well to the modern game and among the guys I put in play.

I see it as opposite. Pettit was extremely athletic and his slender build would absolutely translate to today's game. His listed weight is wrong. When Pettit entered the NBA he weighed 208-209 but in the video below he said he lifted weights as a pro and got up to 245 lbs. Pettit also says if he played today he's probably play at 260 lbs. He's listed at 6'9". Kevin Durant is also listed at 6'9" (per ESPN and Basketball Reference) but his weight is listed at 240 lb. There is no way Durant outweighed Pettit by 32 lbs.

View attachment 26843


Here is some film of Pettit. It's pretty obvious he was extremely skilled.

As for the low shooting percentage there are two factors.

1) Pettit wasn't just an inside guy. he took quite a few jumpers and hooks.

2) In Pettit's era scoring was much higher as teams took many, many shots, especially during the first half of the 1960's. More shots means lower shooting percentage.

And, I'll repeat, Pettit beat the Celtics in 1958 which included scoring 50 points in series clinching game 6 going head-to-head with Bill Russell. Nobody, not named Will Chamberlain, was scoring 50 on Bill Russell. On a side note the 1958 Hawks were the last NBA team to win a title without a single Black player in the roster.