Bye bye
Spiritual Israel or Isrealites.
- Thread starter meshak
- Start date
marhig
Well-known member
We are in hell if we live by the lusts of our flesh and Satan has control of us. And we are dead to God. Hell is a state it is being in darkness, loving this world and the works of it. God gives us the power to overcome and walk in the light through Christ Jesus, he is the way the truth and the life.
God and Christ brings us from the darkness of hell into the light of life and God and brings us from death to life through Christ by the power of the spirit.
Rondonmonson
New member
:hammer:I will give it a go since I did an exegesis on the subject recently. So I can copy and paste my own work without much effort. Here goes nothing..............YIKES..........
Rondonmonson
New member
THIS QUESTION WAS ASKED ME.........Can a person be a child of God just because they are a direct descendant of Abraham, but have rejected Christ? Isn't Israel and the church one and the same?
EXEGESIS ON THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL
No, but you can be a child of Abraham and. There is Spiritual Abraham and Physical Abraham, both can be spoken of in various ways. So when Paul speaks of BLIND ISRAEL.........Is he speaking of Abraham's descendants or not ? HELLO.....You just inferred they aren't Israel, but Paul says they are Israel, they are JUST BLIND.
Paul is trying to point something out by using a demonstration, and its not being picked up on by you guys. He is pointing out ISRAEL HAS BEEN BLINDED for an appointed time. Then he speaks about Israels true seed being of the BELIEVERS LIKENED UNTO ABRAHAM..............Well, OK, we understand this. But where does it say that Israel are not descendants of Abraham, the chosen people of God ? Oh, I get it, you think because Paul said not all Israel is Israel that they are not Gods chosen people....... BUT....... you missed something right in front of your eyes.
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (You see, they are still ISRAEL IN THE FLESH....This seems to not be understood.) 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises...
We have always understood that NOT ALL JEWS GO TO HEAVEN. Why do you not understand that this is a forgone conclusion ? Many of Israels Kings were wicked and are in hell or will be in hell shortly, SO....No Kidding, not all who are born unto the SEED of Abraham are GODS PEOPLE, but those who live by FAITH and OBEY God are His true SEED. That has always been understood, BUT...........Israel is still the chosen people of God, and He will call them to repentance before the Day of the Lord, thus ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. This is EASILY PROVED. Follow along here for a brief time:
As a matter of fact, there is an inference here in Romans 9 that seems to be missed by you guys. Paul is speaking of Issac, he says the ELDER shall serve the YOUNGER. Do you not get that in this very chapter that Paul is telling Israel that God is taking the mantle away from the ELDER (Israel) and making him sever the YOUNGER (GENTILE CHURCH).
Paul talks to the Romans, trying to tell them not to get the big head, thinking that they are special in comparison with the Jewish peoples, for it is Gods will being done, not that the GENTILES ARE SPECIAL. Then he points out what Hosea says in verse 25.....
Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her (Gentiles/Church) beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
{{ DO YOU SEE YOUR ERROR ? Paul is calling the UNBELIEVING nation of Israel....ISRAEL in verse 31 !! It seems you are confused as to what Paul is speaking about here, he is speaking about the ELDER (Israel) serving the YOUNGER (Gentile/Church) because God elected them to serve Him, just like he elected Issac instead of Esau !!
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (AGAIN, Paul calls them ISRAEL.)
Then the next 10 or so verses speaks about Faith in Christ, then Paul says this in verse 12:
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
NO WHERE is Paul saying that the Jews and the Gentiles/Greeks are the same, only that they ALL COME TO GOD/CHRIST VIA FAITH in like manner, Paul still called Israel ISRAEL in verse one in this very Chapter. In the previous chapter Paul is pointing out that the ELDER will serve the YOUNGER. Israel's mantel is given to the Gentiles.
The next few verses, Paul speaks about how hearing the word creates faith, and we have to have preachers sent to preach to hear, and that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jesus will be saved etc. etc. THEN Paul says this:
Romans 9:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
This is Paul, saying the MANTLE has been passed from Israel, to the Gentiles, the ELDER is serving the YOUNGER because God chose it that way, because He saw unbelief in the ELDER, and the YOUNGER BELIEVED God. Thus God will use them to PROVOKE ISRAEL....There it is again, Paul is differentiating the TWO right here. He is saying that God will use the Gentiles to provoke ISRAEL TO JEALOUSY !! There is a Gentile Church and an Israel Nation.
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. { Not talking about the CHURCH HERE !! }
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot (know) ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. {God isn't speaking about the CHURCH HERE}
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. { Paul is speaking about TWO ENTITIES, the Gentile Church and ISRAEL !! }
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (ISRAEL'S)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? { Paul is still speaking about ISRAEL in a SINGULAR MANNER vs the Gentile World or Gentile Church. Israel as a Nation, not Israel as the Church and the JEWS !!! You have to read man, and quit listening to MEN WHO DECEIVE WITH LYING TONGUES, it is right here in scriptures, dig it out. }
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. {THEY = Israel}
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? {Paul is speaking of TWO ENTITIES again, the Church and Israel, the Olive Tree is their own Olive tree, the Gentiles are the Wild Olive tree that has been GRAFTED IN.}
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
{Paul is saying here, hey Gentile/Roman Church, do not get the BIG HEAD thinking you are better than my Brother Jews, blindness IN PART has come upon them, only until the fullness of the GENTILES IS COME IN, or until the time of the YOUNGER (Gentile Church) is finished. There are some Messianic Jews and will always be, thus Israel is blinded IN PART, but there will come a time, when the Gentile Church's mission is finished, Then God WILL LIFT Israels blindness, [there will be 144,000 Jewish Preachers of God, and Elijah will turn Israel BACK TO GOD, Before the Day of the LORD !!! Amen.] and ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. Meaning Israel as a Country comes back to God, and God blesses them and protects them, because they accept Jesus as THEIR MESSIAH !! }
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: .....Jacob !!! NOT CHURCH.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. { Notice the TWO ENTITIES AGAIN ? Its a trend man..............If you just take notice, its there. They are/ISRAEL/JACOB and YOUR SAKE/The Gentile Church of Rome, its a plain as day man.}
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy throughtheir unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Via the Gentile Churches MERCY, God will thus ultimately have Mercy upon Israel. They will remember the Church's sayings, and they will remember that Jesus was THE CHURCHES GOD, and that they said all of these things will come to pass, and when Paul's writings start coming to pass, and Revelation comes to pass, and when the Church is Raptured via 100's of millions of CHRISTIAN'S DYING AT ONCE, Israel/Jews will understand, and when Elijah comes back preaching this SAME GOSPEL, Israel will understand fully the error of their ways, it will HIT THEM LIKE A BRICK........BOOM, Jesus is our Messiah, the scales will be lifted off, and ALL ISRAEL (As a Nation) will be Saved. Or turn to God.
This whole nonsense of taking a Verse here and there out of context is CRA CRA............We see Paul speaking throughout Romans chapters 9-11 about the Gentile Church and Israel as SEPARATE ENTITIES Continually, yet some try to force THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL false doctrine on the world. It is a documented FALSEHOOD, and anyone that studies it just a little bit will understand that, I call it Christians being lazy.
The Church is not ISRAEL..........And Paul never says this, he is ONLY SHOWING how all men must come to God via FAITH ALONE, after all, it is by Faith in Christ Jesus that we are SAVED, not by Works, lest any man should boast.
AMEN.
Interesting statement. It is called Judao-Christianity. Also, religion infers "man's perception of God. God is simply... well GOD IS, or to quote God... "I AM".
Yes, it is chaos and it seems you are one of the contributes of it.
Jesus' gospel is simple and clear, not chaotic nor complicated.
It was so good I wanted to paste it 50 times.
Did you read it? Did you check Romans 10 in the NWT? So many people have tried to share with you sister.
"Please be considerate"
You're welcome
I mean Wow!!!! This is awesome!!! [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION], did you read this? Wow!!! I don't want you to miss it.
This is sooooooo good. I'm totally happy with this. I dub thee, replacement theology slayer! : )
I will not copy and paste whole your post but I get to the point since you are against the OP.
What you are saying is against Jesus' word. It is Jesus who said true Abraham's descendants are the Jews.
Your kind of comment comes by disregarding Jesus' word.
shame on you. Who is your Lord?
Rotfl.....
Translation....
"Hide this... it destroys this OP and exposes the error of the false doctrine called "Spiritual Israel"
Oh my goodness @Mashek... could this mean the Watchtower is wrong?
You are something else.
Who is your Lord?
Op is about Jesus' word and you are mocking about it.
shame on you.
OP DESTROYED!!!!
Jesus is my Lord and God!!!
Spiritual Israel Doctrine... (Torpedoed)
Three cheers for [MENTION=18550]Rondonmonson[/MENTION]!!!!
You will be on ignore, your posts are not worth reading and replying.
You are only repeating the same trash over and over.
good day.
OP Slayed! Literal Israel and the doctrine of Spiritual Israel went toe to toe... [MENTION=18550]Rondonmonson[/MENTION] came in and worked literal Israel up with truth affirming exegesis!!!!
Literal Israel???
Oh Yes!!! LITERAL ISRAEL!!!
In the KJV there are three words translated hell. We must go by the context to determine the meaning.
Not one of the three Greek words have the meaning you use.
In the KJV Jesus died and went to hell, but he recovered nicely. No harm done.
However, feel free to make up your own definitions, many people do.
Hi,
[MENTION=12045]jamie[/MENTION]...
It seems your presence on this thread to support its Spiritual Israel false doctrine is turning into discord over other matters.
Just a pot stirring observation.