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[Tambora]

God never rejected the reprobate according to His foreknowledge of their actions. God rejects reprobates according to His will. God formed all men, either for dishonor or honor, according to His willful purposes and good pleasure.

If God formed some men for dishonor, then He formed them to sin (ie. was His willful purpose that they be formed to sin and therefore dishonored).
God specifically formed them to sin.
God formed sinners.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, Nang and all Reformed recognize that the horse in question is actually dead, dry bones, and until quickened by God (regenerated), will never be able to pull the cart in question.

Your view vs. the Reformed view:

View attachment 24454

View attachment 24455

Spiritual corpses doe not resurrect themselves. :AMR:

AMR

I already informed you, I wouldn't be following your links. So, unless you're doing it for others, don't waste your links on me, please.

 

[Right Divider]

You have completely missed the point of the sentence you have glommed onto by Nang. The point was the seeming inexplicability of God deeming to save anyone, for they were all undeserving sinners in Adam.

You are saved, right? Do you think you deserved to be saved? As in, do you think you possessed some merit that warranted anything from God other than His wrath and justice? Of course you do not. Hence, your going on about deserving this or that makes no sense at all.

- All are born sinners in Adam.
- All deserve God's justice and subsequent everlasting punishment for this is the result of sin against God.
- Yet, God, in His mercy, extended His salvific love to a great multitude of these sinners to the point of sacrificing His Son on their behalf to satisfy justice.
- Why did God choose some and not others? We do not know. We do know He did so for His own purposes and did not choose some because He saw some merit in them such that they deserved His mercy. God is a debtor to no man.
- In the face of this, we ask, is this a logical thing to do? Would any of us do such a thing? No we would not. Hence, the seeming illogic (to our feeble minds). Praise be to God that His ways are not our ways.

Get it now?

AMR

I could still be misunderstanding the issue, but I'm sincerely trying to understand.

My understanding of the Calvinist/Reformed view is that God chose who would be saved and who would be damned individually BEFORE they were "in Adam". Before the foundation of the world, before creation.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

To pray for the salvation of certain people is an "Exercise in Futility" for the Calvinist.

 

[Nihilo]

I could still be misunderstanding the issue, but I'm sincerely trying to understand.

My understanding of the Calvinist/Reformed view is that God chose who would be saved and who would be damned individually BEFORE they were "in Adam". Before the foundation of the world, before creation.

That's about lapsarianism. Some Calvinists will tell you one thing, and others will tell you another.

When I was a Calvinist I identified as infralapsarian because it aligned more with Scripture, while supralapsarianism is more logically cogent.

If I'm remembering correctly of course.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Asserted by you before and answered.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...here-Between&p=4558668&viewfull=1#post4558668

You just wave off actual exegesis and press onward, apparently due to memory retention issues:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Elected-Man&p=4634916&viewfull=1#post4634916

AMR

I appreciate your sarcasm by the way, as subtle as it may appear.

 

[Nang]

If God formed some men for dishonor, then He formed them to sin (ie. was His willful purpose that they be formed to sin and therefore dishonored).

No, God formed them and raised them up to "make His power known." Romans 9:21-22

God specifically formed them to sin.

If this were so, why did He create Adam, good?

God formed sinners.

Incorrect. God formed Adam. Adam sinned.

Adam sinned with the moral agency (will) he was given, being created in the image of God. This gift made Adam morally accountable under the Law, to obey God's commands in order to enjoy life. Genesis 2:16 Adam did not believe God and disobeyed God and lost his life, as warned he would. Genesis 2:17

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I really wonder about your eyesight . . where did you read that I said I never sin?

The law of sin remains in my members, and I rely daily on the promises of the verses you gave out.

In post # 2511 you stated: "This is the tragedy that Jesus Christ has reconciled . . bringing willful sinners back into favor with God through grace and faith and granting new spiritual freedom to choose not to sin again . . through union in Him.

Even though they "choose" not to sin, they are still in their flesh and will sin on occasion, it's quite inevitable wouldn't you say? However, members of the Body of Christ (in their Spiritual position) do not sin and have the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Nang]

And yet, according to my understanding of your doctrine, God chose saved and damned BEFORE any of the these people could have any chance to make these decisions.

BTW, thanks for the neg rep. Your doctrine is FULL of contradictions!

You do not understand my doctrine.

You have a concept buried in your brain that you filter everything through, and it prevents you from seeing the Truth.

Salvation does not come from human decision, actions, or will. John 1:12-13

"Receiving Him" is the effect of being called and raised to new spiritual life through the regeneration worked by the Holy Spirit of God.

It is the will of God that brings salvation. Not a supposed free-will of men.

Until you put aside notions of human choice, you will never understand God's choosings.

 

[Nang]

In post # 2511 you stated: "This is the tragedy that Jesus Christ has reconciled . . bringing willful sinners back into favor with God through grace and faith and granting new spiritual freedom to choose not to sin again . . through union in Him.

Even though they "choose" not to sin, they are still in their flesh and will sin on occasion, it's quite inevitable wouldn't you say? However, members of the Body of Christ (in their Spiritual position) do not sin and have the righteousness of Christ.

Hey, I have a book to recommend to you that will explain all of this quite well. It is called "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther. You can find it online I am sure.

Do yourself a favor and check it out!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It is God's means to use faithful men to preach the Gospel. Where did you first hear the Gospel, if not through another man?

Or do you hear Paul's voice in your head? . . .

You're a novice when it comes to sarcasm. Best to practice before using it again.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

However, why, if we are of the Reformed persuasion, would we feel a strong desire to pray for someone to be saved? After all. God's already chosen. hasn't He?

Yes, God has chosen His children. In the choosing He also ordains the means (including prayers) to that end, including the free prayers of the faithful. When you can point to Scripture that teaches exactly the names of all individuals who will be saved, perhaps then you will have an argument. Until that time, we obediently follow the commands of Holy Writ, lifting up prayers in earnest for the lost around us, in hopes they may be one of those appointed to Life by God, for we do not know the secret will of our Lord (Deut. 29:29).

What do you think is the mechanism behind your prayers for the lost?

When God hears your prayer, "Lord, make Sonnet a Christian?" how does God do that exactly?

Does God change the stubbornness of the unbeliever such that they will believe? (that's regeneration, Eze. 36:26)
Does God make the unbeliever able to actually have ears to hear the Good News? (that's regeneration, Eze. 36:26)

Or do you think God is frustrated by the non-believer's own will? Hence your own prayers are quite useless for God is apparently impotent to do anything. Why do you pray then?

The reality is that most non-Calvinists will pray like Calvinists on their knees. Hence, lex orandi, lex credenda. You just refuse to admit that in your prayer closet you do not actually walk the talk of the non-Calvinist (James 1:8).

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hey, I have a book to recommend to you that will explain all of this quite well. It is called "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther. You can find it online I am sure.

Do yourself a favor and check it out!

You'll be giddy to hear I'm not much of a reader.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

God did just what you're talking about. Calvinists miss the main point though: God's plan is His Church. He extends His mercy to His Church. His Church are the elect. His Church will be saved. The Lord died for His Church. Everything that Calvinists talk about in nebulous terms, actually in point of fact applies to His Church.

The Reformed do not deny the church universal contains the elect of God. I suspect your use of "Church" is meant to imply Romanism, however, which is a group that once possessed the faith but apostatized itself at Trent.

AMR

 

[Nang]

You'll be giddy to hear I'm not much of a reader.

I kinda suspected this was so . . .

Your loss.

For there are lots of theological answers out there to be discovered, if one is hungering and thirsting for Truth.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

God imposes self limitations upon His divine sovereignty.

No, He does not. [FONT=&quot]God is not a little bit pregnant. [/FONT]Power without knowledge is dangerous. Knowledge without power is weak. God is neither dangerous, nor weak. Rather He is wholly sovereign over all that He has created.

God ordains all the means, including contingencies to our thinking, to achieve His ordained ends.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes, God has chosen His children. In the choosing He also ordains the means (including prayers)

I didn't read the entirety of your post, however, this caught my attention. You stated the following: "Yes, God has chosen His children. In the choosing He also ordains the means (including prayers)
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How could the prayers of God's children have influenced His "Choice of who would be of the Elect?" I mean, after all, He made that choice "Before the foundation of the world," correct? Do you see the problem with your statement?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I kinda suspected this was so . . .

Your loss.

For there are lots of theological answers out there to be discovered, if one is hungering and thirsting for Truth.

The Holy Spirit and God's written word is enough. Why mix perfection with imperfection?

 

[Nang]

I didn't read the entirety of your post

This explains why you constantly misinterpret others and accuse people wrongly about their beliefs.

You do not read all you should read . . .

That is something you should fix. Quick.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Does God make some people sin?

No. God is not the author of sin. Sin is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God, in the inward state and habit of the soul, as well as in the outward conduct of the life, whether by omission or commission. See (1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 6:12-17; Romans 7:5-24).

The origin of sin that entered the world rests with the devil. We have no teachings within Scripture explaining why such a heavenly creature in the very presence of God would be led to disobedience. We know God ordained the reality of sin, for nothing happens that He has not ordained to happen, even the devil's and Adam's sin, else God could not know it would happen. The best we can offer up as an explanation for sin is such that the mercy and justice of God might be fully on display, for God always acts to achieve His maximum glory. All God's attributes inhere one another, none being more elevated than another. God is His attributes. Hence, the full display of them all is something we should not find surprising or unexpected.

AMR