I always thought the key element involved with Calvinism was the "Randomness" by which God exercised His Sovereignty?
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I'm afraid I'm not as articulate as AMR. I know he could lead me to a myriad of source materials and links to copious amounts of Calvinist propaganda. However, life is short.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Indeed.
But when I think about it more, it could be said to be quite logical when one considers God's perfect nature.
Logically, God could have saved no one, for all deserve nothing but HIs justice. On the other hand, logically speaking, the character of God is such that He may decide to extend mercy to those whom He so chooses—even an amount of people no man can number—all according to His own purposes and glory. Thankfully He did just that.
Of course, that last bit is actually the miracle many seem to overlook about God as they go about seeking to rob God of His glory with humanistic notions of "fairness" that underly their erroneous claims of a universal atonement. Sigh.
AMR
As we can see folks, Calvinists have their own ideas about the character and intent of the God of the Bible. However, these "ideas" are not consistent to what the Bible has to say about God and His loving Grace. They believe, as Nang said, Christ ONLY died for those who "deserved" to be saved. How does she or AMR KNOW, they were deserving of God's choice of them in particular? Do they have a "special feeling" or has God spoken to them personally? I would ask them, how do you know you were deserving enough for God to choose you over others?
Was it by God's choice to save you? Was it a random choice or as Nang says, a matter of deserving to be chosen? This question is for AMR especially.
What's the difference between someone who hears the Grace Gospel and places their faith in Christ then, is sealed, indwelt, and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit and the Calvinists belief of being "Chosen" by God before the foundation of the world as an "Elect?" One of these beliefs is totally wrong. One of these is filled to the brim with false doctrine and is "Another gospel." There are proponents on both sides of that issue who abide by their system of belief yet, one is wrong and the other is right. AMR/Nang believe they're 100% correct and the other side believes they're 100% correct.
Christians are to testify to the truths of Scripture and to tell others about the Gospel, so they can become a member of the Body of Christ and inherit eternal life. There must be a difference between how a Calvinist must testify and how the Grace Gospel believers testify. If a Calvinist is being honest, ought they not to tell potential believers that they may or may not be of the Elect? After all, that's what Calvinists believe. Otherwise, the Calvinist is being guilty of the omission of truth.
Christians are to testify to the truths of Scripture and to tell others about the Gospel, so they can become a member of the Body of Christ and inherit eternal life. There must be a difference between how a Calvinist must testify and how the Grace Gospel believers testify. If a Calvinist is being honest, ought they not to tell potential believers that they may or may not be of the Elect? After all, that's what Calvinists believe. Otherwise, the Calvinist is being guilty of the omission of truth.
Ask Mr. Religion
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You have completely missed the point of the sentence you have glommed onto by Nang. The point was the seeming inexplicability of God deeming to save anyone, for they were all undeserving sinners in Adam.
You are saved, right? Do you think you deserved to be saved? As in, do you think you possessed some merit that warranted anything from God other than His wrath and justice? Of course you do not. Hence, your going on about deserving this or that makes no sense at all.
- All are born sinners in Adam.
- All deserve God's justice and subsequent everlasting punishment for this is the result of sin against God.
- Yet, God, in His mercy, extended His salvific love to a great multitude of these sinners to the point of sacrificing His Son on their behalf to satisfy justice.
- Why did God choose some and not others? We do not know. We do know He did so for His own purposes and did not choose some because He saw some merit in them such that they deserved His mercy. God is a debtor to no man.
- In the face of this, we ask, is this a logical thing to do? Would any of us do such a thing? No we would not. Hence, the seeming illogic (to our feeble minds). Praise be to God that His ways are not our ways.
Get it now?
AMR
Ask Mr. Religion
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We all see things through a glass darkly. Both views cannot be 100% correct. Both views can be partially correct. Or one view can be closer to the truth than the other. The final verdict on either view rests in what the Scripture's teach.
The Reformed take Scripture's high view of the sovereignty of God giving God all the credit for our salvation. No one reading Job can deny how God views His prerogatives with that which He created. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches us God is a debtor to another. Despite all the lip-service given to how "God did it all for me" the non-Reformed view shares some of that salvific credit between God and man's so-called free will choice via a claimed possession of the moral ability to believe and then be saved. Even if that shared credit is infinitesimal on man's part, the Reformed view this as robbing God of His glory and sovereignty.
The Reformed take sola scriptura, solus Christus, sola gratia, sola fide, and soli deo gloria, as literally as the terms were intended in answer to the corruption that entered the church in the sixteenth century. By refusing to give man some part to play in his own salvation, the Reformed do not cheat the cry of the Reformation to return to the teachings of Scripture. The Reformed understand what the Protest was all about behind Protestantism. You are standing on the backs of the men of the Reformation while complaining that they quite literally did not know what they were talking about. Try not complaining about the hunger of the world with your mouth full. :AMR:
AMR
I thought that interesting as well. I was led to believe that we were all under sin and needed a Savior? However, Nang has enlightened me to the fact, some are more "Deserving than others. She and AMR just happen to be more DESERVING than others. The reason being, they are Calvinists. What a coincidence?
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Nang and AMR explain Scripture just fine.
Well GM it looks like we have another reformed sympathizer
Eagles Wings
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A student of the Reformation, Calvin, Luther, Beza, Melachthon, et al.
Ever been in prison, tried in a court of law, chased throughout raw, open country, all in the name of Christ?
Ever read about the multitude of martyrs who died for the sake of speaking for Him? Many of the Reformation did just that.
I'll proclaim the Sovereignty of God and the Attributes of God as told by Scripture and Christians whom I actually admire.
Both the Catholics and the Calvinists (Reformed) had/have it wrong. You and your ilk are placing far more trust in men of old, than you ought. One CANNOT look upon a verse such as Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" without seeing the frustration of Christ who is mourning the fact that His people (The Jews) chose to not follow after Him and worship Him alone. Yet, Calvinists would have us believe, "There is NO free will!" If there be NO free-will then, we are forced to accept that, God "WILLED" the Jews to not follow and worship Him alone. That is illogical and not the God that I know. That's not the God of the Bible. That's "Another God." The "Reformed" folks have changed the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to have Him fit their false doctrines.
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musterion
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Paul suffered all of those things (and more) first. We'll study his example, thanks.
Paul was martyred for Him long before they were. We'll read about his example, thanks.
Paul taught all that first. We'll admire Paul's example, thanks.
Are you a Catholic? You've yet to answer? I was led to believe you were.
Amen Brother.
True!
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