ECT Some Basic Theses of NT Eschatology

[Totton Linnet]

Israel at present are enemies of the gospel for our sake but BELOVED of God for the sake of the fathers....for God's call and gifts are irrevocable.

God loves the Jews and so do I. And if God reneges on His promises to Israel how can you trust Him not to renege on His promises to YOU?

God will never renege, He is no Welshman

 

[Interplanner]

You're right but not in detail. Do you know the sermon of Acts 13? many people do not know it is there; most people do not know what it says. It is Paul speaking to a Jewish synagogue remote from Judea, in "Little Asia." They are despondent about Israel the state and wonder if there is anything encouraging to say.

the excitement is that the resurrection of Christ is the fulfillment of 'whatever God promised to our fathers.' The resurrection proves that there is justification and generates a completely new mission for those raised in Judaism to take up alongside their Gentile believers.

There is nothing about a future state, and it is quite clear that God has come through re Israel in the resurrection of Christ and this new mission.

Go on to v47 and you'll see that your questions come up, make Jews angry, and Paul answers them with the mission to the nations prophesied in Isaiah. Once you have digested all that, you truly have what the NT is saying.

The NT is not accurately portrayed by those who believe in gaps, parantheses and a future Israel state/theocracy/worship system. The NT throbs that all this is fulfilled in Christ.

With great finality, Paul says, near the end of his career, that he never spoke beyond what the Law and Prophets said about Christ: that he would suffer and be glorified by resurrection in his last hearing in Acts 26. Paul limits himself to that. It would have been the perfect time to mention a future for Israel but he does not. He says their hopes are already all realized in Christ.

 

[Danoh]

Israel at present are enemies of the gospel for our sake but BELOVED of God for the sake of the fathers....for God's call and gifts are irrevocable.

God loves the Jews and so do I. And if God reneges on His promises to Israel how can you trust Him not to renege on His promises to YOU?

God will never renege, He is no Welshman

Lol, a Welshman He is not.

To be sure - even within Mid-Acts people - some will confuse what Paul is depicted preaching in Acts, based on Acts.

Luke's account of Paul, in Acts.

Whereas, Paul's account in his own writings, is much more detailed.

His preaching in Acts 17, for example, appears the same as his preaching in Acts 9.

Until you read Paul's own, eight chapters [and then some, really] as to what he had shared with those in Acts 17.

As accounted by Paul in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. "Remember ye not," he asks them "that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" in 2 Thessalonians 2:5.

And there are many examples of this between Luke's account in Acts, and Paul's further details. This, given their obviously respective goals via said account.

The point being that there are principles that those unable to see ethnic Israel's yet future fulness as to His "covenant unto them" cannot but fail to reveal they have read right past, no matter what such individuals might assert otherwise.

Such assert that the Old is understood via the New. And that makes sense to them.

What they really mean is that the Old is understood by their misunderstanding of the New.

As I noted, such is even the case, at times, even within Mid-Acts people.

Its all in where one believes one is looking at a thing from, in contrast to, where one actually is.

Case in point - some take 1 Thessalonians 2:16's "Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost" several decades before 70AD, as having been a reference to the Lord's pending return in His wrath, against Israel, in the person of Rome's Military might, in 70AD.

Scripture asserts otherwise. The principles relate otherwise.

The principles ignored, either out of unawareness, if not out of ignorance, result in said 70AD notions.

Its all in where one believes one is looking at a thing from, in contrast to, where one actually is.

Including my own.

 

[Interplanner]

The NT asserts both Danoh. It was rejected verbally mid way through Christ's ministry. OR even from the beginning, such as in Luke's rising and falling. But the events themselves that destroyed it came later and inevitably. His grace allowed a whole generation to escape if they would believe.

It is not a matter of the Scriptures "asserting otherwise" from the early declaration in 1 Thess. It could have happened anytime there. Paul thought of the whole end of Israel and the world as being very imminent.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Israel at present are enemies of the gospel for our sake but BELOVED of God for the sake of the fathers....for God's call and gifts are irrevocable.

God loves the Jews and so do I. And if God reneges on His promises to Israel how can you trust Him not to renege on His promises to YOU?

God will never renege, He is no Welshman

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Paul has just been telling you that the elect are the beloved for the fathers sake and that the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Gods word did not fail--

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
'
But you do not want to listen to that because your ideas are more important to you than what God has said.

LA

 

[Danoh]

Lol: possuls. That's a new one!

Peter was not talking about the millenium. He was saying that the delay could be very long, by God's grace toward mankind. The delay is the Mt24:29 delay. It originally says that the end of the world would be right after the events that took place in Judea in that generation. But a delay was allowed.

The NT never speaks of a parenthesis or any need to do anything further with Israel. Rom 11 is entirely resolved in the present. The quote from Isaiah is present (that means historic for Paul; it's already taking place). The "Israel" that is to be "saved" (justified from sins, not a restoration of a theocracy) is ongoing. He does not mean the state or ethnos he grew up in. He means the one that is by faith and that includes Gentiles already. v30 says all of God's dealings on these things are in and through Christ. There is no more dealing with one ethnos one way and another another way. That is why v32's doxology says "To whom is God a debtor of anything?" No one.

The NT is emphatic on the passages dealing with the promises to the fathers that they are fulfilled as rendered in Christ. Rom 3, 4, Eph 2, 3, Acts 13's sermon, Acts 26's presentation, Hebrews (all), 2 Cor 1, 3-5, Gal 3-4. It cannot be missed except by people trained in systems not to read the NT clearly.

Christ is enthroned, Acts 1, 2, 3, Eph 1-2. But we do not see everything subject to him.

re the millenium of Rev 20, you'll notice that there is nothing Judaic about it. And it ends in a short rebellion. It is not wise to start any doctrine from the Rev because of the type of writing that it is. You must start from the letters.

Yes, there is NHNE, but Christ is already that creation, 2 Cor 5, Gal 6. That's why in the Rev 21, there is no (Judaic) temple because God/Christ is the temple and the sun.

Lol - a delay between Matt. 24:29 and whatever it is that God is doing in the meantime, is a parenthesis, o blind one.

Where do you get off asserting a thing is so, without laying out its basis via the passages?

This, for example "Rom 11 is entirely resolved in the present. The quote from Isaiah is present (that means historic for Paul; it's already taking place)."

Prove it. Then again, perhaps you are unable to. Perhaps you got that out of many books, and proving it through Scripture is nigh impossible for you.

Like what's his name on here. He asserts he is such an expert on these issues and then, when asked about one thing or another, relates as you often do "I'll have to look that up..."

That appears humble, but is actually a sign of not much time in the Scripture. Of incompetence at it.

Time in Scripture results in one's mind's memory management to just pop up the relevant passages simply by word and or context association.

If one has Scripture in one to begin with - from - time - in - Scripture.

"Now, what was I thinking - o yeah, now I re-member..."

Re-member: the process of re-membering, or bringing back together as one, that in memory which is related to other things in memory - "by reason of use."

Likewise with the word re-collect.

Lol, I can see you running for your books...

Try proving your above assertion through the passages, for once.

Here, an example from the past, of how this is done:

“For a long time I went astray [in the monastery] and didn’t know what I was about. To be sure, I knew something, but I didn’t know what it was until I came to the text in Romans 1 [:17], ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live.’ That text helped me. There I saw what righteousness Paul was talking about. 82 Earlier in the text I read ‘righteousness.’ I related the abstract [‘righteousness’] with the concrete [‘the righteous One’] and became sure of my cause. I learned to distinguish between the righteousness of the law and the righteousness of the gospel. I lacked nothing before this except that I made no distinction between the law and the gospel. I regarded both as the same thing and held that there was no difference between Christ and Moses except the times in which they lived and their degrees of perfection. But when I discovered the proper distinction—namely, that the law is one thing and the gospel is another—I made myself free.” (Luther's Works, Volume 54, P442).

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...n-luther-arrive-at-the-justification-by-faith

 

[Interplanner]

Lol - a delay between Matt. 24:29 and whatever it is that God is doing in the meantime, is a parenthesis, o blind one.


No a parenthesis is when you start some other program. The program to the gentiles already was started before the DofJ and continues. There is no parenthesis. Just a delay. Your simplistic thinking can't see the difference.

I have written probably 100 posts on Rom 11 here. Do some reading and PAY ATTENTION.

But I will give the strongest item: "saved" is justification from sins. Do not read "restored theocratic state in the surveyed boundaries of modern Israel and then some." That is not what saved means at the end of Rom 11. It did not mean that in Rom 10. It does not mean that in the fulfilled quote from Isaiah. That quote reads in future tense in Isaiah's time, which is historic tense in Paul's. Saved means justified from sins.

2P2P sees the word saved in its text-searches near the word Israel and says "See there is the restored theocractic, worshipping OT state in the boundaries of modern Israel or as large as David's at its peak." That is not what Paul meant at all. There is no NT argument for it to mean that because of Acts 13's sermon, Eph 2,3, Gal 3, etc.

Only in dispensational writings.

Where do you get off asserting a thing is so, without laying out its basis via the passages?

This, for example "Rom 11 is entirely resolved in the present. The quote from Isaiah is present (that means historic for Paul; it's already taking place)."

Prove it. Then again, perhaps you are unable to. Perhaps you got that out of many books, and proving it through Scripture is nigh impossible for you.

Like what's his name on here. He asserts he is such an expert on these issues and then, when asked about one thing or another, relates as you often do "I'll have to look that up..."

That appears humble, but is actually a sign of not much time in the Scripture. Of incompetence at it.

Time in Scripture results in one's mind's memory management to just pop up the relevant passages simply by word and or context association.

If one has Scripture in one to begin with - from - time - in - Scripture.

"Now, what was I thinking - o yeah, now I re-member..."

Re-member: the process of re-membering, or bringing back together as one, that in memory which is related to other things in memory - "by reason of use."

Likewise with the word re-collect.

Lol, I can see you running for your books...

Try proving your above assertion through the passages, for once.

Here, an example from the past, of how this is done:

“For a long time I went astray [in the monastery] and didn’t know what I was about. To be sure, I knew something, but I didn’t know what it was until I came to the text in Romans 1 [:17], ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live.’ That text helped me. There I saw what righteousness Paul was talking about. 82 Earlier in the text I read ‘righteousness.’ I related the abstract [‘righteousness’] with the concrete [‘the righteous One’] and became sure of my cause. I learned to distinguish between the righteousness of the law and the righteousness of the gospel. I lacked nothing before this except that I made no distinction between the law and the gospel. I regarded both as the same thing and held that there was no difference between Christ and Moses except the times in which they lived and their degrees of perfection. But when I discovered the proper distinction—namely, that the law is one thing and the gospel is another—I made myself free.” (Luther's Works, Volume 54, P442).

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...n-luther-arrive-at-the-justification-by-faith

 

[Interplanner]

Rom 11 is entirely resolved in the present because of how v30 reads and because it is not a prediction. It is a spurring, an arousing, of Israel at Paul's present time. It says so. It does not ask D'ists what they think first.

 

[Interplanner]

Time for #8: 2 Peter 3 is the best guide about the future.

This is the apostle's answer to skeptics that Christ would return when it seemed like he already should have in the 1st century with the looming destruction of Israel. It addresses the delays after the DofJ when the judgement of the whole world did not happen. It mentions nothing Judaic because there is nothing. It is also the longest statement all in one place.

Use 2 Peter 3 first for any doctrines about the future day of judgement.

 

[Interplanner]

#9 is now a thread. It says that pop eschatology spends all its time Ps 83, Ezek 38, 39 instead of Ps 2, 16, 110 which is where the apostles were instructed to spend their time.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It is disobedient Israel which is to be restored, the Christ rejecting Israel.

Not likely--

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

The hardening which has come upon them is not permanent.

Only if they repent--

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.



and it is too late for the dead to repent--

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

Not likely--

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.





Only if they repent--

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.



and it is too late for the dead to repent--

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

LA

Totton,
he only means individuals within the ethnos will respond. That's because ethnos don't do anything anymore--that was in the imagination of Judaism. Paul says what he does to try to walk them back out of that belief. If an individual from an ethnos reponds, then that shows that that ethnos can respond, but he doesn't ever mean that the whole ethnos will.

That is why we should not look to a point when a whole ethnos does this or that.

Therefore it is intriguing that the believers were called a 'nation' in Mt 21's vineyard parable. They are called the nation that produces the fruit of the kingdom. That's the only group as such that God works with.

 

[Interplanner]

Looking for your comments on the whole set:

1, Rom 11 is prodding not prediction
2, Gal 3:17 is the true RT issue
3, Isaiah shifted David's promises
4, Acts 26 is the true shape of Israel's outcome
5, The "people" of the parable of the vineyard are all who are active in the Gospel's mission; there is no such thing as knowing the Gospel without knowing it in a missionally-active way
6, Rom 2 on the judgement of God surprised Jews at the time
7, 2 Pet 3 is the best, longest passage on the 2nd coming
8, The NT does not mix 1st century Judean events with the future worldwide judgement day
9, The apostles spent most of their exposition on Ps 2, 16 and 110, not Ps 83, Ez 38 and Zech 14
10, "Saved" in Rom 11 (Isaiah) is justification from sin

 

[Interplanner]

Looking

 

[Lazy afternoon]

why do people keep saying Israel will be spared and then happily quote Zech passage about half the city being destroyed and the women raped before God comes and fights the nations? great sparing huh?

Christ returns to deliver the believers of Israel, not the sinners He casts out through the resurrected Saints and the mortal believers---

Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. (armaments and soldiers)

]Zec 12:5 And the governors (not an accurate word) of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.


Isaiah ch 14.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

Christ returns to deliver the believers of Israel, not the sinners He casts out through the resurrected Saints and the mortal believers---

Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. (armaments and soldiers)

]Zec 12:5 And the governors (not an accurate word) of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.


Isaiah ch 14.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

LA

There's no need for long quotes, since they don't match anyway. one half does not equal one tenth, etc.

Only about 8% are messianic believers today. There are no cavalry today at all in Israel. Or there is a government department in charge of keeping them secret! lol

Why would God do this kind of destruction again to Israel when the things that happened in 66 were 'the punishment in fulfillment of all that is written' says Paul through Luke 21?

Do not mix 1st century Judean events with the future worldwide judgement of God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

There's no need for long quotes, since they don't match anyway. one half does not equal one tenth, etc.

Only about 8% are messianic believers today. There are no cavalry today at all in Israel. Or there is a government department in charge of keeping them secret! lol

Why would God do this kind of destruction again to Israel when the things that happened in 66 were 'the punishment in fulfillment of all that is written' says Paul through Luke 21?

Do not mix 1st century Judean events with the future worldwide judgement of God.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ecc 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

 

[Interplanner]

??? Just comment on Lk 21.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

??? Just comment on Lk 21.

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


That could not refer to the time of the first century.

The intermingling of verses which applied then but also to now, just get you all confused and that is the very idea of it because you think you can figure things out without Christ teaching you.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

Or...you don't know the 1st century!

Every thing he said there is about that generation. This is one of most inexplicable mistakes of modern people reading the Bible. He is talking to them, it is vital to them, it is set in 1st century Judaism, John's letter says the same thing, the Thess letter says he would soon come and claim to be god (which in Judaism, that's what happens when you claim to be Christ).

In the Jewish revolt of 66 there were at least 3 who claimed to be messianically anointed and to make things worse, they fought with each other about who was purest.

There is a ton of information that is completely lost these days, and the snowjob that buries it all is the futurist eschatology which started in the mid 1800s. The knowledge of the 1st century ended when that started.

You have mixed 1st century Judean things with the worldwide judgement coming, which will always be totally confusing.