Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

2003cobra

New member
And Lon likes to add is own slant to what people believe, but I will say I don't worship any man or book, Jesus being the perfect pattern is kinda foolish to bow to a pattern other than acknowledge the Truth it portrays.

I certainly don’t worship any book, and I don’t buy into the lies people put on its resume.

Jesus is not just a man, and He proved that by predicting His own resurrection from the dead and following through. I do follow Him and strive to do as He taught.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
I certainly don’t worship any book, and I don’t buy into the lies people put on its resume.

Jesus is not just a man, and He proved that by predicting His own resurrection from the dead and following through. I do follow Him and strive to do as He taught.
Romans 10:17 - [FONT=&quot]So then faith [/FONT]comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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2003cobra

New member
He tells them to bring both in Matthew just as Matthew states/implies.
And now to you, firstly, you have admitted my understanding of Mat 21:7:







But you say that Matthew is in error because of your understanding of Zec 9:9, (which I have highlighted with bold red in the second quote from above herein, "The writers of Matthew, mostly likely the Apostle Matthew’s students, wrote the version with two animals", "The writers misread Zech 9.9 and revised the story to match the prophecy. They made an error, and we still have the error in the text"). However you have not proven that Matthew is in error just because he notes that it was actually two donkeys that were brought, (which I have now explained in my commentary at the end of the post immediately above).

Moreover you have made your position clear in the following posts:



It is agreed that the Master only sat upon one donkey, that is, the colt or foal, the son of the mother she-donkey: but again that does not prove anything because Matthew is expounding that the mother of the colt was either along side it or walking in front of it. The Matthew text does not mean that the Master rode upon both of them, and no one says that he did in any of the other texts: therefore they all agree that the Master rode upon the colt, but the other accounts simply do not mention the mother she-donkey being present. You have not proven anything: just because they did not mention the fact that the mother donkey was present does not mean it is not true. Neither does it discount or contradict what Matthew says.



Definitive version or not, Matthew does not contradict it but rather supplements the fact that the mother donkey was brought along side the colt: that fact is logically acceptable because the colt had never been ridden. If you cannot see it now I will try to come back to the translation from this author, whom you yourself chose to quote, and I will use his translation, (your very own choice, unless you have another), and with the Matthew passage and the other passages it can be shown that they do not contradict. The truth appears to be that Matthew simply expounded on the passage, and you have taken issue with that because you cannot imagine that the mother donkey would need to be present, even if merely for the fact that the young colt had never been sat upon or ridden by anyone. You do not take a young donkey colt or foal away from its mother, saddle it with garments, and then try to ride it for the first time in its life, (since you want to see all these things as natural and physical). It is you who have not thought this through:

1) she-donkey - "accustomed to the yoke" - Jerusalem (mother-covenant)
2) colt or foal - "son of the she-donkey" - "son of Zion" (Lam 4:2, 7) - the Groom

So the Master rides upon the colt, the son of the she-donkey, and the she-donkey represents the mother-covenant, which walks along either in front of the colt or beside it as they enter into Jerusalem. The colt, (upon which no man ever sat), represents the Groom, the son of Zion, (Lam 4:2, and her Nazarites are purer than snow, Lam 4:7), and that implies that the colt itself represents the Messiah, the Groom, the King, (Zec 9:9), coming to meet his bride, (the daughter of Zion), with his mother-covenant, (the she-donkey), walking along in front or beside. It is a perfect allegory-analogy for the covenants when you take into account all of the other things that have been posted herein, (especially the statements from the Last Supper).

Thank you for stating clearly that you believe that Jesus told the disciples to bring two animals.

You have confirmed that you believe both Mark and Luke misquote Jesus and therefore have errors.

Let’s go the case of the centurion. Did the centurion come to Jesus and speak to Jesus, or did the centurion not come to Jesus and not speak to Jesus?
 

2003cobra

New member
Romans 10:17 - [FONT="]So then faith [/FONT]comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, nothing in that passage says Bible.

It is about hearing the Word of God, the Message of God.

No matter how many times preachers hold up a book and shout “This is the Word of God,” note they are not quoting scripture to make that point. It is just a tradition, at best, and one not supported by the text.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Thank you for stating clearly that you believe that Jesus told the disciples to bring two animals.

You have confirmed that you believe both Mark and Luke misquote Jesus and therefore have errors.

Let’s go the case of the centurion. Did the centurion come to Jesus and speak to Jesus, or did the centurion not come to Jesus and not speak to Jesus?

Lucky for you I do not run around reporting people every time they lie about me.
So I will turn the other cheek . . . :)
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Before you say whether the centurion came to Jesus and spoke to Jesus or not?

I have already given you my answer for that several times and you rejected it, and for the same reason I changed my mind when we first started talking in this thread, and decided against starting another thread about the Matthew genealogy: remember that? For after just a few short exchanges with you it was obvious that nothing is going to change your mind because you are only here to serve your own paradigm and tell everyone else how wrong they are, (without actually having any real evidence outside of mere translational issues). I nailed it from Pg.38 onward and even later told Patrick, and he confirmed that also later in this thread, and no doubt most everyone else sees it too: it really has nothing to do with me or my intellect but rather the fact that you and yours are so predictable, (the leopard cannot change his spots, lol).
 

Lon

Well-known member
I got it the hard way.
Experience.... bumps, bruises and hurt pride.

Sorry Lon but the price of eye salve is humility.
Whatever it takes. You've a long way to go. No school? Might want to rethink your prowess. Now talk to Zeke.

He, like you, believes the scriptures have errors. So much so, that he doesn't believe in a literal Jesus.

Where are you going to go with him from there?

I certainly don’t worship any book, and I don’t buy into the lies people put on its resume.

Jesus is not just a man, and He proved that by predicting His own resurrection from the dead and following through. I do follow Him and strive to do as He taught.

Good start :think: ... He doesn't believe Jesus was but a legend, might have been a figure, message is lost, imperfect, missing. I 'think' all you've got is "I believe less errors than you, Zeke." He is likely going to hammer you on that and see more than a little wrong and nothing, similar to you 'inspired' or such. I'll be reading along to see where you go from here. I've no idea how this plays out in your two world views. :idunno:

And Lon likes to add is own slant to what people believe, but I will say I don't worship any man or book, Jesus being the perfect pattern is kinda foolish to bow to a pattern other than acknowledge the Truth it portrays.

"It" huh? Not the worst I've been called. You certainly can set the record straight. I don't want to overtly bin you, but I am representing a lot of your statements accurately. You have said most of what I've restated. You are free to state it in a way you like, but I tend to be more succinct, and I think accurate than even you are quite capable (not a slam, esoterics are just not good at explaining anything, too head-somewhere-else). :e4e: (you realize, don't you, that I have not removed you from my friends list, I TRULY wish you in Christ). -Lon
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Either Matthew’s quote of Jesus is not accurate (not the real words of Jesus) or Mark’s and Luke’s quotes are not the real words of Jesus.

I have tried repeatedly to get you to say what Jesus really told the two disciples to find and bring, yet you will never answer.

So I ask again. Is the quote in Matthew accurate or is the quote in Mark/Luke accurate? They are mutually exclusive.

What were the real words of the Savior:
1) Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie and bring to me.
Or
2) Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie and bring

Which is it, 1 or 2?

If I ask you to go to the store and buy me a Snickers bar and a box of toothpicks, and tomorrow I tell someone that you bought me a Snickers bar, am I right or am I wrong?

Leaving out information in a narrative does not negate the validity of the narrative. The most important part was the colt, as is the Snickers bar - yum!

Both the *** and the colt were brought to Jerusalem. Jesus had to ride a foal that had never been ridden. The best way to bring the colt to Jerusalem was to lead it by its parent. Someone rode the donkey and trailed the colt. Perhaps Jesus rode the colt into Jerusalem while it was still being led by its parent. There is nothing in the narratives or the prophecy that would prohibit this. It should be said that the colt could have been used to carry burdens or pull a load but not yet trained to accept commands from a rider. It would be a good thing, then, if another animal that it trusted, led it. A young male horse or donkey can be called a colt up until it is 2-3 years old.

Zech 9:9KJV tells us not just that the Messiah will ride an *** into Jerusalem but that it will be a foal that has never been ridden. What better way to fulfill this prophecy than to bring the father/mother along with the same markings for observers to determine the relative ages and pedigree of the colt.

(I am deliberately not addressing the sex of the parent donkey as it is of no consequence to the story)
(No idea why the proper English word for donkey which is *** is blanked out by TOL. Not my doing)
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Whatever it takes.

Which does not entail you having the rule over me.



You've a long way to go.


Hopefully all eternity. :)



No school?

At least you had enough sense to put a question mark after that.



Might want to rethink your prowess.

You callin' me a night creature?



Now talk to Zeke.

He, like you, believes the scriptures have errors. So much so, that he doesn't believe in a literal Jesus.

Where are you going to go with him from there?

I haven't heard him say there was not a literal Jesus.
 

2003cobra

New member
Lucky for you I do not run around reporting people every time they lie about me.
So I will turn the other cheek . . . :)

You confirmed that you believe Jesus sent the disciples to find and bring two animals, that His Words were not instructions for one animal but for two.

That eliminates the possibility that Mark and Luke are inerrant.

For the record, I disagree with you and believe the misquoting of Jesus is in Matthew, and the misquoting is the result or an misunderstanding of the prophecy by the writers.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I am not called to convince anyone. Neither are you. We are especially not called to convince people with obvious lies about documents.

We are called to share the gospel, and the Holy Spirit does the calling and convincing.

If you expect to win him by declaring he has to believe the Bible is error free while there are obvious errors, you should reconsider that approach.

Don't talk to me, talk to Zeke about it. There is no advice I'd take from you, just waiting to see where you go. I too believe Jesus Sovereign. You can't think we'd disagree on every single thing. I don't really need anything from you in my theology so am really not open to your input here. We disagree. Where we might agree is incidental. The disagreement is the thing. I DO believe errant scriptures leads to a liberal unchristian theology. I've seen it. Already told you that. This isn't about me. Convince Zeke that these 'errant' scriptures aren't AS errant as he thinks they are. :think: :sigh:
 

2003cobra

New member
I have already given you my answer for that several times and you rejected it, and for the same reason I changed my mind when we first started talking in this thread, and decided against starting another thread about the Matthew genealogy: remember that? For after just a few short exchanges with you it was obvious that nothing is going to change your mind because you are only here to serve your own paradigm and tell everyone else how wrong they are, (without actually having any real evidence outside of mere translational issues). I nailed it from Pg.38 onward and even later told Patrick, and he confirmed that also later in this thread, and no doubt most everyone else sees it too: it really has nothing to do with me or my intellect but rather the fact that you and yours are so predictable, (the leopard cannot change his spots, lol).

What I read from your comments about the centurion was that it didn’t matter because it was a spiritual story, not history.

Please correct me if I have misstated your position.
 

2003cobra

New member
...Good start :think: ... He doesn't believe Jesus was but a legend, might have been a figure, message is lost, imperfect, missing. I 'think' all you've got is "I believe less errors than you, Zeke." He is likely going to hammer you on that and see more than a little wrong and nothing, similar to you 'inspired' or such. I'll be reading along to see where you go from here. I've no idea how this plays out in your two world views. :idunno:


...

Telling him the Bible is error free when there are obvious errors is not going to help you spread the gospel.
 

2003cobra

New member
If I ask you to go to the store and buy me a Snickers bar and a box of toothpicks, and tomorrow I tell someone that you bought me a Snickers bar, am I right or am I wrong?

Leaving out information in a narrative does not negate the validity of the narrative. The most important part was the colt, as is the Snickers bar - yum!

Both the *** and the colt were brought to Jerusalem. Jesus had to ride a foal that had never been ridden. The best way to bring the colt to Jerusalem was to lead it by its parent. Someone rode the donkey and trailed the colt. Perhaps Jesus rode the colt into Jerusalem while it was still being led by its parent. There is nothing in the narratives or the prophecy that would prohibit this. It should be said that the colt could have been used to carry burdens or pull a load but not yet trained to accept commands from a rider. It would be a good thing, then, if another animal that it trusted, led it. A young male horse or donkey can be called a colt up until it is 2-3 years old.

Zech 9:9KJV tells us not just that the Messiah will ride an *** into Jerusalem but that it will be a foal that has never been ridden. What better way to fulfill this prophecy than to bring the father/mother along with the same markings for observers to determine the relative ages and pedigree of the colt.

(I am deliberately not addressing the sex of the parent donkey as it is of no consequence to the story)
(No idea why the proper English word for donkey which is *** is blanked out by TOL. Not my doing)

If you are quoting Jesus’ instructions to the disciples, the differences between Matthew and Mark/Luke are more than Snickers and toothpicks.

The error I am pointing out are the Words of God: what did God Incarnate, Jesus Christ, say?
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
"It" huh? Not the worst I've been called.

I don't think he was calling you an it, Lon.

At worst he was calling Jesus an it.

Seems from yer point a view Jesus himself did the same thing when he admonished Martha for snivelin' 'bout Mary sittin' at His feet.

New International Version
42but few things are needed-or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."
 
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daqq

Well-known member
You confirmed that you believe Jesus sent the disciples to find and bring two animals, that His Words were not instructions for one animal but for two.

That eliminates the possibility that Mark and Luke are inerrant.

For the record, I disagree with you and believe the misquoting of Jesus is in Matthew, and the misquoting is the result or an misunderstanding of the prophecy by the writers.

It's amazing how your kind just will not let up, especially when someone tries to cut themselves loose from your rantings: you then immediately start making things up and casting accusations just so as to force them to respond to you because you simply cannot handle being ignored. It is troll-like behavior: your reflex, when having been backed into a corner like a cobra, is to strike out and try to make people angry when you cannot get them to agree with your opinions, and what is that? apparently you chose to glory in that instead since you cannot actually prove that what you say is true. I already explained my position on the previous page, which you also responded to, and rather than offer a rebuttal, since you had none, you began tossing out lies about what I have "confirmed" in what I believe about the scriptures. I never confirmed any such things because I showed you why your own position is in error; and you had no rebuttal, not even a response except for the accusation. Then you decided to try to change the subject, going back to the centurion, again, because you obviously have no rebuttal for my position which has been clearly laid out for you. The onus is upon you to prove by the scripture why your position is correct and mine is in error before you start spewing lies. Can you not see that your accusation can only be correct if you first prove your position to be true and then after that I reject the truth? Again, you have not proven anything, so your accusation holds no water because Matthew and the other Gospel accounts do not contradict and neither can you prove it to be so.
 
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Zeke

Well-known member
I certainly don’t worship any book, and I don’t buy into the lies people put on its resume.

Jesus is not just a man, and He proved that by predicting His own resurrection from the dead and following through. I do follow Him and strive to do as He taught.

Neither are you, you were born with that same light/Father that is portrayed speaking through him, plus the term death and resurrection is something that is symbolic and perverted by Romanism that welded the sword against those who knew better than to believe in a literal sacrifice of a man, if one wants to cry paganism the place to start would be how did such a doctrine get introduced as being from our Father who is perfect and judges no man which kinda puts a reality check on whole the theory concerning salvation.

Better to follow the Father in you like he did, the crucifixion is the spiritual seed that must die before it can awake first the natural man then the rebirth as an Quickening Spirit that happens within the heart/soul and produces its Eternal fruit 2Cor3:6 that's the correct interpretation and you don't have try and rationalize the Bible stories interpreted through a carnal mind as literal secular history, that view is promoting a dual minded god which is what religions do by the carrot/reward and stick/punishment from believing and partaking of good and evil that's keeps you in slavery Galatians 4:1, that's why interpretation is the real elephant in the traditionalist temples made withhands.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Which does not entail you having the rule over me.
No, but you get to feeling your wild oats. How long before he's no longer your heretic and the next one is?

He's perfectly capable and worse, (imho) of defending and being on the offensive. He started off here on the offensive.

Hopefully all eternity. :)
1 John 3:2, then it won't matter. Now, it does.
At least you had enough sense to put a question mark after that.
No, just trying to elicit a thought. He's already admitted to the blue-collar school of hard knocks, (same as yours).
I was already doing the studious thing before seminary.

You callin' me a night creature?
Well, I didn't make the jump from you to Cobra there. Mostly it was a formatting thing. This computer doesn't have the RAM needed for today's internet. One of these days, "too the moon!" (apologies, much of the latter was to Cobra, I missed interjecting his quote right in between there.





I haven't heard him say there was not a literal Jesus.
This is really the larger part of the intended conversation with you. Again, apology for missing a couple of quotes TO Cobra in there. He got most of it, but my post to you was more about Zeke's statement earlier this and last year, that the Lord Jesus Christ wasn't a person but an 'ideal' and such. In the thread he started "You are Divine and your own healer" the sentiment is Jesus was a nice guy to follow, but you don't need Him, you need his message and are good to go once you've married Christianity to Eastern Buddhism and mysticism. He is certainly welcome to correct me wherever I've not accurately portrayed him, but I think I've represented him and his beliefs fairly well.
 
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