Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

2003cobra

New member
Hawkins, we will have to agree to disagree on that point in several aspects. To me, this is clearly Jesus quoting scripture that has been lost.

Also, this is not about water coming from rocks. It is about living water coming from the believer. Some would say this is a reference to the Holy Spirit.

Many writings referred to in the Bible have been lost, such as the letter Paul wrote to Corinth before the letter we call 1 Corinthians.
 

Hawkins

Active member
Hawkins, we will have to agree to disagree on that point in several aspects. To me, this is clearly Jesus quoting scripture that has been lost.

Also, this is not about water coming from rocks. It is about living water coming from the believer. Some would say this is a reference to the Holy Spirit.

Many writings referred to in the Bible have been lost, such as the letter Paul wrote to Corinth before the letter we call 1 Corinthians.

There is no "OT lost writings" from the perspective of OT Canon.

It's not proper to get to conclude that "the verse is not in the Canon" even in the case of missing writings. It is because even when it is a direct quote and the writings are missing, those verses can still be inside the Canon. They are inside the Canon but the original canonical writings are lost. So it's never proper to say that "the verses are not in the Canon".

Jesus was actually extending the OT verses to imply that He's the source of living water. It is because that it is an implication that it is not necessarily be a direct quote.

The following is a reference from a commentary about John 7:38.


College Press NIV Commentary:

In Jesus’ day the Jerusalem celebration of Tabernacles involved a daily fetching of water from the Pool of Siloam in a golden pitcher, and a ritual pouring out of the water at the temple altar. The purpose of this ceremony was to remind the nation of Israel of God’s miraculous provision of water out of rocks while they were in the desert wilderness (Exod 17:1-7; Num 20:1-11; cf. Deut 8:15; Wisdom 11:4). But for the Jews God’s supplying of water was more than a past, historical event tied to the wilderness experience. The Scriptures repeatedly portrayed God as the one who provides spiritual water to the spiritually thirsty and looked ahead to a time when there would be an ultimate fulfillment of this thirst-quenching. Notice these texts (as well as Ps 107:9; Isa 35:7; cf. Rev 7:14,17; 21:6):
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
Isaiah 44:3
Come all you who are thirsty,
Come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Isaiah 55:1
Jesus echoes Isaiah when he announces, “If a man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.” John weaves his editorial guidance into the words of Jesus to teach us that neither Tabernacles nor the offer of Jesus were really about water, but about the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Jesus ties this together by describing his offer of water/Spirit as having a scriptural antecedent, streams of living water will flow from within him.
 

God's Truth

New member
No, it's more like to say that,

"The Bible says that you shouldn't put the Lord's name in mouth only". Jesus is talking the how the water coming from rocks. It's rather a summary of several verses, and could possibly expressed in Greek in that scenario.

"The Bible says" or "The Scripture says" isn't necessarily a direct quote but can be an explanation or summary or interpretation depending on situations. Especially under the circumstance that Greek is used to do so with the original verses in Hebrew.

Living waters is reference to the Holy Spirit.
 

Hawkins

Active member
Living waters is reference to the Holy Spirit.

I am not disagreeing with that.

John 7:37 (NIV2011)
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.

Jesus said in a loud voice, "come to ME". God is the source of living water. In that scenario the "me" can well be Jesus Himself.
 

God's Truth

New member
I am not disagreeing with that.

John 7:37 (NIV2011)
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.

Jesus said in a loud voice, "come to ME". God is the source of living water. In that scenario the "me" can well be Jesus Himself.

I am not sure what you are saying. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Living Water and he gives the Living Water.
 

2003cobra

New member
Hawkins, you wrote There is no "OT lost writings" from the perspective of OT Canon.

What about the Book of Jasher/Jashar, mentioned in 2 Samuel 1?

Then David called one of the young men and said, "Come here and strike him down." So he struck him down and he died. 16 David said to him, "Your blood be on your head; for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, "I have killed the Lord's anointed.' " 17 David intoned this lamentation over Saul and his son Jonathan. 18 (He ordered that The Song of the Bow be taught to the people of Judah; it is written in the Book of Jashar.) He said: 19 Your glory, O Israel, lies slain upon your high places! How the mighty have fallen! 20 Tell it not in Gath, proclaim it not in the streets of Ashkelon; or the daughters of the Philistines will rejoice, the daughters of the uncircumcised will exult. 21 You mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew or rain upon you, nor bounteous fields! For there the shield of the mighty was defiled, the shield of Saul, anointed with oil no more.
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Shalom.

Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

Shalom.

Jacob

Scripture is the accumulated writings of holy men. Holy men decide what goes in or out. Because they rely on the scripture for their authority, they claim God wrote what they wrote. The common bible is comprised of 66 books finalized by a council of the RCC which considered itself inerrant.
 

2003cobra

New member
Scripture is the accumulated writings of holy men. Holy men decide what goes in or out. Because they rely on the scripture for their authority, they claim God wrote what they wrote. The common bible is comprised of 66 books finalized by a council of the RCC which considered itself inerrant.

Which council?

The RCC canon has more than 66 books.

The earliest council with which I am familiar that set the current RCC canon was the Council of Carthage at the end of the fourth century.
 

Jacob

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Banned
Scripture is the accumulated writings of holy men. Holy men decide what goes in or out. Because they rely on the scripture for their authority, they claim God wrote what they wrote. The common bible is comprised of 66 books finalized by a council of the RCC which considered itself inerrant.
Caino,

Thank you for your well thought out reply. Are you Catholic? Were these holy men who decide what goes in or out? Different from those who wrote what we know to be God's Word, Scripture, Torah, the TaNaK, Matthew through Revelation. Were the 66 books decided on following a New Covenant or New Testament Canon, an Old Covenant or Old Testament Canon, or were these both decided upon at the same time. Were the designations Old Covenant or Old Testament and New Covenant or New Testament decided upon before or after a Biblical Canon or their respective Canons? When were the books accepted and when did they become Canon? I am not Catholic and never will be.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

God's Truth

New member
Please quote the OT scripture.

Jeremiah 2:13 “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Jeremiah 17:13Lord, you are the hope of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

Isaiah 58:11
"And the LORD will continually guide you, And satisfy your desire in scorched places, And give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.
 

2003cobra

New member
Jeremiah 2:13 “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Jeremiah 17:13Lord, you are the hope of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

Isaiah 58:11
"And the LORD will continually guide you, And satisfy your desire in scorched places, And give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.

Are you saying that one or more of these verses says "Out of the believer's heart (literally, belly) shall flow rivers of living water.”

I don’t find that credible.

If that is your position, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.
 

2003cobra

New member
Caino,

Thank you for your well thought out reply. Are you Catholic? Were these holy men who decide what goes in or out? Different from those who wrote what we know to be God's Word, Scripture, Torah, the TaNaK, Matthew through Revelation. Were the 66 books decided on following a New Covenant or New Testament Canon, an Old Covenant or Old Testament Canon, or were these both decided upon at the same time. Were the designations Old Covenant or Old Testament and New Covenant or New Testament decided upon before or after a Biblical Canon or their respective Canons? When were the books accepted and when did they become Canon? I am not Catholic and never will be.

Shalom.

Jacob

I am interested in his answers too.

I will note that it is unlikely that a Roman Catholic would declare that the Bible has 66 books, as their Bibles have more books than that (as does the 1611 KJV.)
 

God's Truth

New member
Are you saying that one or more of these verses says "Out of the believer's heart (literally, belly) shall flow rivers of living water.”

I don’t find that credible.

If that is your position, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

God is the Living Water and the Jews who sinned by forsaking God are people who are broken and cannot hold the Living Water. They should have believed God and they would have held His Water within them.

I was just showing you scripture about the Living Water.

What you are doing is what? You are speaking about books that are missing? Okay, now what? So what? What can one do about it? Would you accept other books that have not been protected as the Holy Bible has been? Does having more books help you to be saved? The Bible has everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Hi, No, I'm not Catholic, I'm a disciple of Jesus, of his original, pre-cross gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

By the first council of Nicea in 325 the cannon lists were developing. In 321 Constantine had 50 Bibles put together using a list. Throughout the coming years and councils various list were in circulation. There is no indication in the scant histories of the development of the canon list about "covenants".

Gods Word is the Living Truth, the Bible books are the Written Word, influenced by Men, holy men, some more holy than others. The OT was itself still in development in the first century.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Hi, No, I'm not Catholic, I'm a disciple of Jesus, of his original, pre-cross gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

By the first council of Nicea in 325 the cannon lists were developing. In 321 Constantine had 50 Bibles put together using a list. Throughout the coming years and councils various list were in circulation. There is no indication in the scant histories of the development of the canon list about "covenants".

Gods Word is the Living Truth, the Bible books are the Written Word, influenced by Men, holy men, some more holy than others. The OT was itself still in development in the first century.
The best to you. Thank you for sharing.
 

2003cobra

New member
God is the Living Water and the Jews who sinned by forsaking God are people who are broken and cannot hold the Living Water. They should have believed God and they would have held His Water within them.

I was just showing you scripture about the Living Water.

What you are doing is what? You are speaking about books that are missing? Okay, now what? So what? What can one do about it? Would you accept other books that have not been protected as the Holy Bible has been? Does having more books help you to be saved? The Bible has everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
I have noticed that people sometimes tend to pad the resume of the Bible, imagining it to be infallible and defining every word in it to be the Word of God. The Bible never made those claims for itself.

We are to love and follow the Lord.

Do you still maintain that Jesus quoted the OT in John 7?

I will find a quote that might help and post it.
 

2003cobra

New member
Here is the quote:

“In short, the Scriptures, according to the early Fathers, are indeed inspired, but that is not the reason they are authoritative. They are authoritative, and hence canonical, because they are the extant literary deposit of the direct and indirect apostolic witness on which the later witness of the Church depends.”

Excerpt From
The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance
Bruce M Metzger
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-canon-of-the-new-testament/id806791592?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.
 
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