Scientists baffled by a perfect example of Biblical kinds

Stuu

New member
What does your philosophy have to say about the nature of time? Really, I'd like to hear it, since I have brought up the problem of imagining a 'cause' for the 'beginning' of the universe several time, but no-one has addressed it.
There is no such thing as 'before' the Big Bang because time is an inherent component of the space-time dimensions that came into existence as the universe inflated.

You can't have a conventional 'cause' because causes come before effects, but the first thing we see is the effect - the event of the Big Bang that started time, which is central to the usual concept of 'cause and effect'.

It is possible that causes don't always come before their effects. There are weird things going on out there.

Stuart
 

Lon

Well-known member
That's an excellent response!

But now we expose Saul of Tarsus to the accusation that he didn't really understand the implications of quantum mechanics.

Stuart
He didn't have to, and I only have to insofar as it relates to Christianity. I think this kind of ends this portion of dialogue though. If you ever start a thread just on quantum physics, though, please let me know. I am fairly interested.
 

Stuu

New member
He didn't have to, and I only have to insofar as it relates to Christianity.
Why would you limit yourself so severely?

If scripture is inspired by your god, and your god knows about quantum mechanics and wave particle duality and all that stuff, shouldn't it have been a bit more careful about inspiring rash statements that might lead to questioning by humans later on? I'm sure the Calvinist god is very careful about that sort of thing, because it really knows what things lead to.

Or maybe we have quantum mechanics wrong. Or maybe gods are just products of a febrile imagination.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
See how easy it is to find an exception to a Darwinist's definition?
Congratulations, Stripe. What an achievement.

Another problem with the definition of species is what happens across long stretches of time. I know you don't believe in long stretches of time, but for the purposes of discussing reality I will assume that the long periods of time that have occurred did actually happen as they happened.

The question is, at what point did our ancestors stop being Homo erectus and start being archaic Homo sapiens? There never was a last pair of Homo erectus that bred the first ever Homo sapiens, that really would make a mockery of the interbreeding definition. You could make a case to draw the line between those species anywhere inside a period of many thousands of years.

Therefore, the line of continuous breeding that goes back from us over 3 billion years includes countless species that would not be able to breed together. That is the nature of slow, continual (or slightly punctuated) evolutionary change over vast periods of time.

You can call it a failure of language, and to some extent it is, but it is a case of using a fairly general word to encompass a quite complicated set of related ideas.

Because then you have ring species, right? And so on.

Stuart
 

Lon

Well-known member
Why would you limit yourself so severely?
Well, think of where we are, it isn't an imposition per say. I think we could talk politics no problem, but I'm thinking you'd have empathy for me at this venture. I don't know who the next Prime Minister is going to be, I think perhaps I'd trade in wishful-thinking, the vote!
If scripture is inspired by your god, and your god knows about quantum mechanics and wave particle duality and all that stuff, shouldn't it have been a bit more careful about inspiring rash statements that might lead to questioning by humans later on? I'm sure the Calvinist god is very careful about that sort of thing, because it really knows what things lead to.
You'll have to explain to me one day why 'it' is preferential when talking of a personal God. As far as a problem? I don't see much mention in scripture. I realize, again, you see contradiction, but I'm fairly sure you are stuck with translation and consequentially antiquation of translated terms and meaning, even in newer translations. You'd not be able to check and see if the translation was correct.
Or maybe we have quantum mechanics wrong.
Doesn't your statement that it isn't logical already allude to this? I have no idea why atoms behave differently when I am watching them as opposed to when I am not, but the mere fact opens up a huge theistic door to me. You, being aware, actually have me perplexed you are an atheist. Einstein certainly wasn't. He never got as close as Christianity, but I think that brilliant man indeed did see the writing on the wall. He was a better scientist and mathematician than I think you or I will ever be, however. We just don't have 180 IQs.

Or maybe gods are just products of a febrile imagination.

Stuart
See above. Do you think Einstein was subject to that? :nono: He reasoned the belief. As I will ever continue to say, even and especially cerebrally, atheism is untenable. For Einstein, it was not imagination. It is, ever, an odd and less than cerebral accusation and obviously a quirky defense employment. I don't care what you 'think' you know about the unseen God, your summations are careless and coping mechanisms.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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You didn't. A lion and a tiger can't produce viable, fertile offspring
Yes, they can.

No, they are the same genus but different species, as you have probably read for yourself, possibly in my post on that topic.
So your definition does not apply.

Congratulations, Stripe. What an achievement.
Not really. It's easy to find exceptions to Darwinist definitions.

Another problem with the definition of species is what happens across long stretches of time.
:AMR: We're not talking about what you think happens to populations. We're talking about the definition of an English word.

The question is, at what point did our ancestors stop being Homo erectus and start being archaic Homo sapiens? There never was a last pair of Homo erectus that bred the first ever Homo sapiens, that really would make a mockery of the interbreeding definition. You could make a case to draw the line between those species anywhere inside a period of many thousands of years.
Even assuming the truth of your religion, this has nothing to do with the topic. If the word "species" is just an arbitrary grouping of organisms based on personal preference, define it as that. :up:

However, if you want a word that is going to be useful in a scientific setting, define it rigorously and be prepared to defend your definition against exceptions.
 

Stuu

New member
However, if you want a word that is going to be useful in a scientific setting, define it rigorously and be prepared to defend your definition against exceptions.
Why? Because you say that is how science should work?

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
I realize, again, you see contradiction, but I'm fairly sure you are stuck with translation and consequentially antiquation of translated terms and meaning, even in newer translations. You'd not be able to check and see if the translation was correct.
Yes, I don't feel it is my problem. I don't see any text as absolute. But if the claim of divine inspiration is a genuine one then you might hope that a god of that inclination would take care to inspire the translators as well as the original authors. Or maybe your god has special messages for Anglo-Saxon readers that don't apply elsewhere!

If the English of Queen Elizabeth I was good enough for Jesus then it's good enough for me.

You, being aware, actually have me perplexed you are an atheist.
You haven't given me any reasons to change that view. Why is it perplexing? We were all born atheists, indeed we were born entirely unaware of the christian mythology.

The question for every christian is, how did you let that happen to you? Did you get greedy for the charlatan's promise of living forever? Did it become comforting to have a childhood story follow you into adulthood, no matter how miserable it actually is, prima facie? How could you possibly believe the recycled Mesopotamian man-god myth of a child being born of only one parent, capable of walking on the surface of water, and walking again after judicial execution?

If that's not absurd, a bit dull, and obviously made-up then what is?

Einstein certainly wasn't. He never got as close as Christianity, but I think that brilliant man indeed did see the writing on the wall.
You do realise that what I write about your belief system is high praise compared to what Einstein wrote about it, right?

He was a better scientist and mathematician than I think you or I will ever be, however. We just don't have 180 IQs... He reasoned the belief.
Do you actually know what Einstein believed about religion? I sense the danger that you will quote him out of context, a very easy thing to do unless you have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of all his statements about religious belief. But go ahead, and then be prepared to be torn apart by the cabal of heathens living in here!

I have to add that I think Einstein is wrong about the relative roles he assigned to science and to religion.

atheism is untenable
I am still breathing. No god has stopped me. Not even Bacchus. And what is more, I don't have a spiritual outlook based on someone being nailed to a tree.

I don't care what you 'think' you know about the unseen God, your summations are careless and coping mechanisms.
Don't forget unheard, and unnecessary too.

Stuart
 

Lon

Well-known member
Yes, I don't feel it is my problem. I don't see any text as absolute. But if the claim of divine inspiration is a genuine one then you might hope that a god of that inclination would take care to inspire the translators as well as the original authors. Or maybe your god has special messages for Anglo-Saxon readers that don't apply elsewhere!
Obviously. The rest of us learn Greek and Hebrew or at least look up words that have changed in meaning, in a good Oxford or Websters 3 volume dictionary :plain:

If the English of Queen Elizabeth I was good enough for Jesus then it's good enough for me.
The Hebrew word for a day can be 24 hours, and it is usually context and/or commentary from another passage that affirms whether we grasp it well. Because at that time, written language was in its infancy, the terms tend to be broad, and allow context to direct the meaning. This is no problem for a Hebrew, even today. They don't think like Westerners.
You haven't given me any reasons to change that view. Why is it perplexing? We were all born atheists, indeed we were born entirely unaware of the christian mythology.
There is no reason not to rob you blind or take your life in the process if I can be assured of getting away with it. There are only two factors not to do so 1) would be a societal pressure after an evolutionary standpoint, but if I can get away with it, that pressure is removed. The 2nd is a higher plane of existence and values than merely genetics and DNA. Logically, it makes better sense to enrich your life by my robbery and demise and there should be no regret over such since it doesn't matter any way if we are both dirt. There is, literally, no reason to refrain if I am not created in God's image nor you. Apes do it to each other all the time. There is no remorse. Apes don't answer to a God. That is what separates us. Besides, Einstein was smarter than most of us, he believed a god must exist, and he did not say 'gods' so was a deist representing few religions at that point, all from Judeo/Christian origins. He didn't claim Christianity, but he did come to his belief in God from his science and mathematical studies. That somebody more brilliant than you believed God had to exist, I'd think a denial anti-intellectual.

The question for every christian is, how did you let that happen to you? Did you get greedy for the charlatan's promise of living forever? Did it become comforting to have a childhood story follow you into adulthood, no matter how miserable it actually is, prima facie? How could you possibly believe the recycled Mesopotamian man-god myth of a child being born of only one parent, capable of walking on the surface of water, and walking again after judicial execution?
You haven't got a clue, buddy. I 'would' have been that moral-less guy without Christianity. Christianity, indeed does incredibly influence people for the better.

If that's not absurd, a bit dull, and obviously made-up then what is?
It isn't a logical position. Never will be. You have to be purposefully obtuse, not just ignorant, to be an atheist. It is not, in fact, the default position. Everything, your parents, creation, beauty, your favorite flavors, all point to purpose in the universe. You have to turn off a portion of your brain (the good portion) to hold to atheism. There is no wonder, awe, or beauty left in an atheists world. Oh, I'm sure there is hedonism, but that isn't the same thing. You oddly use the one thing animals can't do - logic/understanding, to relegate yourself to the rest of creation that doesn't have that capacity. What could be more inane than that?


You do realise that what I write about your belief system is high praise compared to what Einstein wrote about it, right?
Again, he was a deist and Jewish. Of course he didn't believe in Christianity. He had morality issues with his girlfriend that were unacceptable at the time. Anything he might have said was reactionary, but he did indeed say that from his studies, he knew God had to exist, however else he felt about Him.

Do you actually know what Einstein believed about religion? I sense the danger that you will quote him out of context, a very easy thing to do unless you have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of all his statements about religious belief. But go ahead, and then be prepared to be torn apart by the cabal of heathens living in here!
No need, I'm well aware . Again his view against religion is not a lack of conviction that God surely exists, of which science and mathematics convinced him.
I am aware of his statements about the Bible (OT specifically, he was a Jew, and held more strongly to it as he aged). He said science without God was lame and inadequate to task.
I have to add that I think Einstein is wrong about the relative roles he assigned to science and to religion.
If you had a 180 IQ that would impress me. That may seem a bit of a cheapshot, but it is not in this case. Again, Einstein came to his conclusion based upon science and mathematics. He is the quintessential master of his domain. If is incredibly odd that public education is trying to separate education from religion. This is the strange obsession of atheism and communist states when the premiere quintessential player says not to do it. At least you are on a Christian website a LOT.

I am still breathing. No god has stopped me. Not even Bacchus. And what is more, I don't have a spiritual outlook based on someone being nailed to a tree.
Again, drawing your breath, just now, by His sustaining power, is a mercy, especially I light of the sentiment, no? I can't make you a Christian. There is only one who can.

Don't forget unheard, and unnecessary too.
Seen a Few Good Men? You very well may need Him on that wall, whether you know it or not, to even pen your response and draw your breath while doing so. Einstein certainly believed and concluded so. He had a hard time and disdain for religion (not that he had great exposure to Christianity, he was often writing to rabbis), not God.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Yes, they can.
Ok then why are you refusing to provide evidence of ligers being fertile? A simple link that supports you will suffice.



I went ahead and looked it up. You are correct here, Stripe. As with mules, female ligers are normally fertile. And as with mules (donkey+horse), per Haldane's Rule tigers and lions aren't the same species because only one sex is born fertile. Due to this, a true hybrid "species" cannot possibly form because two fertile ligers (or tigons, if you like) can't possibly ever meet up and produce offspring. So even though tigers and lions can reproduce together, their offspring can't form a stable population and they are therefore different species.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldane's_rule

We told you that this stuff is not a simple definition
 
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Stuu

New member
There is no reason not to rob you blind or take your life in the process if I can be assured of getting away with it. There are only two factors not to do so 1) would be a societal pressure after an evolutionary standpoint, but if I can get away with it, that pressure is removed. The 2nd is a higher plane of existence and values than merely genetics and DNA. Logically, it makes better sense to enrich your life by my robbery and demise and there should be no regret over such since it doesn't matter any way if we are both dirt. There is, literally, no reason to refrain if I am not created in God's image nor you.
So you, who rejects evolution by natural selection, are now attempting to make semi-evolutionary arguments for the superiority of god belief!

Let me have a go: we are social animals, adapted to working together for the common good of being successful at survival and reproduction. Our genes and our social conditioning work together to make us function in this way. Our genes got that way because of the long slow process of decreasing the frequency of genes that tend to lead to antisocial / anti-human survival behaviour. Those who behave this way are less likely to participate in reproduction of the next generation, so those negative genes decrease in frequency. That is not to say those negativebehaviours don't exist, but overwhelmingly humanity is not like the images you see on the news. They are, grossly, the exceptions not the rule. Think of how many Americans didn't commit murder or rob a grocery store today. And this arises because natural selection does the weeding very well, although not perfectly, as you would expect. So what motive have I not to rob you? Robbery is unfair, and humans have a strong inherent (genetic, no doubt) sense of justice. Robbery threatens the ability of a tribe to work together, the best way they can all survive and thrive. Would a woman pick a robber or a financially self-providing male mate as her preferred option? Who gets to pass on their genes?

As Christopher Hitchens used to enjoy asking, name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer; the second challenge: can anyone think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?
Apes don't answer to a God.
Humans are apes. But humans don't answer to a god either.

Einstein was smarter than most of us, he believed a god must exist, and he did not say 'gods' so was a deist representing few religions at that point, all from Judeo/Christian origins. He didn't claim Christianity, but he did come to his belief in God from his science and mathematical studies. That somebody more brilliant than you believed God had to exist, I'd think a denial anti-intellectual.
Einstein called himself at various times agnostic, a religious nonbeliever, pantheistic, and a believer in Spinoza's god.

From the Holy Wikipedia:

Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding an anthropomorphic deity, often describing it as "naïve" and "childlike". He stated, "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems."


Einstein rejected the term atheist I think mostly on the grounds of that last part above: our knowledge is imperfect and so it would be a mistake to be absolutist about the non-existence or nature of gods.

When you try to look through the quite complicated language of Spinoza , there is very little difference between what Einstein describes as his beliefs and Richard Dawkins - the 'world's most famous atheist' - describes as his.

Everything, your parents, creation, beauty, your favorite flavors, all point to purpose in the universe.
Of course there is purpose in the universe because animals exhibit purpose. But what you mean is there is a universal intelligence making and running everything with some purpose in mind.

And what does 'points to' actually mean? It is a platitude you see creationists using all the time. It is, actually, a very dishonest way of trying to suggest to you some kind of scientific robustness, without saying what science would have to say: there is unambiguous evidence that there is a purpose behind the operation of the universe. But of course that is wrong, because there is no unambiguous evidence for a purpose at all. I promise you I have thought carefully about this, so if you can actually give me something better than the cheap 'points to' I will listen.

The other hypocritical aspect is that no religious believer can tell you what the 'purpose' of the universe is. I guess that would be blasphemy. Or, if they try to tell you it is never consistent from one believer to the next. So wouldn't it be a little bit humbler not to mention it until you've got your story straight?

Stuart
 
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