Schick test

[elohiym]

You're going secular? Hm. I definitely didn't see that one coming.

"Magical thinking is the attribution of causal relationships between actions and events which cannot be justified by reason and observation." What he claimed is magical thinking because what happened at Disneyland is not evidence the risk of measles infection is high.

It's noted you think believing that God is love is magical thinking. lain:

lain: (But obviously, that's because of the plumbing, not the introduction of vaccinations).

Measles what? Incidence, death, complications, what? How about giving us a labelled graph, zoo? Regardless, the numbers are low relative to the population size during any of those years.

Why ignore the fact that for most of the 20th century people were intentionally infecting their children with measles? That would cause the infection rate to be high, right? You can find that documented in the scientific literature. See my thread on Measles Parties for more information.

Bottom line: the incidence of measles correlates with other factors better than vaccination. Measles parties are just one example.

Anyway, it's true the risk of getting measles is very low...

Yes, it's true the risk of getting measles is very low. It's also true that a measles infection is generally mild and harmless, which is why mothers used to bring their children to measles parties.

... and it's great you have so many folks getting vaccinated and helping you and your unvaccinated kids stay healthy. Very fortunate.

That's magical thinking, zoo. If everyone in the United States except my children received the diphtheria/tetanus vaccination, it would have no impact on the health of my children. Furthermore, 100% of everyone vaccinated can still become infected with diphtheria and tetanus and suffer fatal consequences. That vaccine does not confer immunity against infection because that's not how it works. The pseudo-scientific idea of herd immunity is irrelevant to some vaccines.

Unfortunately, I have a member of my family who had a heart/lung transplant, and she certainly wishes that you and your family would get vaccinations.

Audacious! I live a few thousand miles from her, and my children are healthy. Whether or not they get a dip/tet is irrelevant to her health, even if they slept in her bed. Does she want them to take a live virus vaccine like MMR and come and visit her?

Meanwhile, you haven't had your tuberculosis vaccination, have you? What about your typhoid fever vaccination? YOU are the risk to your family member by your standard and should receive a lot more vaccinations than you've had. I can provide a list of vaccinations you can get just to make sure you're covered for everything possible. Will you make a public commitment right now to get them all?

Because of course, she has almost no immune system, so she can't get a vaccination, and she'd likely die if someone, like say your unvaccinated kids, gives her the measles while they're standing next to one another browsing through delicious veggies at the farmer's market.

Since you're setting my children up as her assassins, perhaps you will share the cause of her heart/lung transplant. What happened to her heart/lungs that required the transplant?

But that's nice you guys are so free and don't need vaccinations! Hooray!

Ah, but we're not as free as you in our thinking; we're constrained by logic.

Let me know when you get that typhoid fever vaccination. There are an estimated 5700 cases of typhoid fever in the U.S. every year and 200,000 people in the world die from it. That relative of yours must be terrified to have you around her since you are not vaccinated against typhoid fever. Does she call you "typhoid zoo" because you are not vaccinated? :think:

Oh, don't start talking about low risk now. Fifty-seven-hundred people get it in the United States every year, and you were just making a stink about measles with far, far less incidence. Just make that doctors appointment and get the vaccine. Practice what you preach! :thumb:

 

[The Barbarian]

The Schick test has it's own hazards and difficulties. It must be given precisely intradermally (the most difficult of injections techniques) and must be carefully read, because there are several ways you can get a false positive.

Even more of a concern is the Arthus reaction. Because of the high concentration of immunoglobulins in the skin, the reaction can cause pain, swelling, and even necrosis of the skin and underlying tissues at the site of the test. This can happen to a lesser degree with the immunization.

There is some evidence that the intradermal injection of the vaccine (only about 0.1ml) can produce effective immunity in itself. The influenza vaccine is sometimes given this way, and has produced good immunity. (again, because of the higher concentration if immune globulins in the skin)

 

[elohiym]

The Schick test has it's own hazards and difficulties. It must be given precisely intradermally (the most difficult of injections techniques) and must be carefully read, because there are several ways you can get a false positive.

Those are not significant obstacles to using the test. I have given many intradermal injections and don't consider it the most difficult, but I agree it requires skill to administer. Of course, like any test result, it can be interpreted by a specialist and false positives must be discerned.

Even more of a concern is the Arthus reaction. Because of the high concentration of immunoglobulins in the skin, the reaction can cause pain, swelling, and even necrosis of the skin and underlying tissues at the site of the test. This can happen to a lesser degree with the immunization.

There is some evidence that the intradermal injection of the vaccine (only about 0.1ml) can produce effective immunity in itself. The influenza vaccine is sometimes given this way, and has produced good immunity. (again, because of the higher concentration if immune globulins in the skin)

If what you are claiming is true, it could be safer to use the lower amount of toxin ID without aluminum adjuvant than to use the higher amount of toxin IM with aluminum adjuvant. I'll have to research that.

 

[The Barbarian]

Those are not significant obstacles to using the test. I have given many intradermal injections and don't consider it the most difficult, but I agree it requires skill to administer.

An ER physician (and a dermatologist, no less) asked for one of my techs to do an intradermal, because he missed twice. Helps if you do it with the bevel down...

Of course, like any test result, it can be interpreted by a specialist and false positives must be discerned.

My guys could do it, but not every tech can.

If what you are claiming is true, it could be safer to use the lower amount of toxin ID without aluminum adjuvant than to use the higher amount of toxin IM with aluminum adjuvant. I'll have to research that.

It's known to work for the influenza vaccine, but they look at me funny when I ask to have it that way; apparently no one will do it.

Works for typhoid immunizations, too, but there are really nasty Arthus reactions in some people. At the time, 161-13 said that it "shouldn't" be given that way, which is an unusual wording for an AF reg. Once a bird colonel came in and asked for just that. He was still on flight status, and needed it, but didn't like getting sick as one often does from a full dose IM. I explained the hazard, and he said he had done it before and was willing to assume the risk. I checked with the flight surgeon, who told me to go ahead. Apparently, it worked fine.

 

[elohiym]

An ER physician (and a dermatologist, no less) asked for one of my techs to do an intradermal, because he missed twice. Helps if you do it with the bevel down...

:ha: Nobody ever gave me that tip. Figures. "Bevel up!"

The hardest injections I had to give (and receive) were oral injections. I wager a mandibular block, bevel up, down or sideways is harder than an ID.

 

[The Barbarian]

I didn't mind giving them. Rather not have one given to me.

Normally, dental techs did that kind of thing. I had an allergy/immunology clinic, so not much experience with that. Part of the training, and then never did it again.

BTW...

Bevel-down superior to bevel-up in intradermal skin testing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9207725

 

[elohiym]

I didn't mind giving them. Rather not have one given to me.

I disliked ID the least. The repeated IVs got old fast.

Normally, dental techs did that kind of thing. I had an allergy/immunology clinic, so not much experience with that. Part of the training, and then never did it again.

Same here. I never had to give a mandibular block or pull teeth. Although, I think, when it comes to ID injections you probably had to do those in practice. I don't know. When I received a scratch test in the Army, it was done by a doc. But I was able to do things that only nurses or doctors get to do in the civilian world. You know.

 

[elohiym]

BTW...

Bevel-down superior to bevel-up in intradermal skin testing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9207725

Thanks for the info. I was discharged in '94 so ...

Now I'm thinking of all the times my instructors (doctors, nurses, emt) told me, "Bevel up, bevel up!" You must remember that, too. :chuckle:

 

[The Barbarian]

Thanks for the info. I was discharged in '94 so ...

Me? 1978.

 

[elohiym]

Me? 1978.

You do seem more mellow than me.

 

[Timotheos]

Most people see the needless risk they expose their children to by not vaccinating them.

What are you talking about? Wouldn't it naturally be better to test to see if someone is already immune to a disease before they are automatically given a vaccine that they don't need? For pete's sake, don't you check the tread on your tires before you assume they need to be changed? Aren't children more important than tires? Let's shoot them full of drugs just in case they might need one of them. That attitude is irresponsible.

 

[elohiym]

What are you talking about? Wouldn't it naturally be better to test to see if someone is already immune to a disease before they are automatically given a vaccine that they don't need? For pete's sake, don't you check the tread on your tires before you assume they need to be changed? Aren't children more important than tires? Let's shoot them full of drugs just in case they might need one of them. That attitude is irresponsible.

Someone gets the point of the thread.

:BRAVO:

 

[CabinetMaker]

What are you talking about? Wouldn't it naturally be better to test to see if someone is already immune to a disease before they are automatically given a vaccine that they don't need? For pete's sake, don't you check the tread on your tires before you assume they need to be changed? Aren't children more important than tires? Let's shoot them full of drugs just in case they might need one of them. That attitude is irresponsible.

Given that children are not naturally immune to diseases, why would you administer one if those highly invasive and needlessly painful heel sticks to confirm it. That sounds irresponsible to me.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Given that children are not naturally immune to diseases, why would you administer one if those highly invasive and needlessly painful heel sticks to confirm it. That sounds irresponsible to me.

Your sarcasm is worse than usual today. Heel sticks are not the test being discussed. Those are much more painful and troublesome. Heel sticks are currently 5 - one inch circles of blood milked from the heel.. Not needed for an immunity test. I'd like to see an adult put up with a comparable amount of blood milking without grimacing or even crying.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Your sarcasm is worse than usual today. Heel sticks are not the test being discussed. Those are much more painful and troublesome. Heel sticks are currently 5 - one inch circles of blood milked from the heel.. Not needed for an immunity test. I'd like to see an adult put up with a comparable amount of blood milking without grimacing or even crying.

It's all related though, isn't it. We are still waiting for you to tell us how to get a blood sample completely painlessly.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

It's all related though, isn't it. We are still waiting for you to tell us how to get a blood sample completely painlessly.

Check the forced vaccination thread.

 

[Granite]

Obviously immunity to syphilis can be acquired. Let me know when you get the point.

Do you have the first idea what you're talking about?

I believe it's reckless to get a vaccine for a disease you are already immune to. Why do you disagree?

Like I already said, it's erring on the side of caution. Why you wouldn't want to be double-sure about your health is beyond me.

This coming from the man who admitted on another thread he didn't get the flu vaccine sometimes because he either forgets or is too lazy.

You're a real pill. In the past decade or so I've forgotten once. And yet you keep bringing this up as though it's "proof" of something. I've seen squirrels proud of prize nuts before but this is just ridiculous.

It's not endangering others to refuse a vaccination you don't need.

...which isn't what I'm talking about.

 

[elohiym]

I believe it's reckless to get a vaccine for a disease you are already immune to. Why do you disagree?

Like I already said, it's erring on the side of caution. Why you wouldn't want to be double-sure about your health is beyond me.

If you are already immune you don't need to be "double-sure" about your health.

In the past decade or so I've forgotten once.

I don't believe you. You probably seldom get a flu vaccine.

 

[Granite]

If you are already immune you don't need to be "double-sure" about your health.

Not every layman's a medical expert, last time I checked, and I don't think erring on the side of caution is something to dread.

I don't believe you. You probably seldom get a flu vaccine.

And I don't give a hoot in hell what you think of me, you half-witted poorly-read delusional reckless death-seeking loon.:loser:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do you have the first idea what you're talking about?

You didnt quote who said this:

Obviously immunity to syphilis can be acquired. Let me know when you get the point.

Whoever said that is nuts and has no clue what they are talking about and would likely put someone in danger to claim that they could acquire immunity.

Does past infection with syphilis make a person immune?

There is no natural immunity to syphilis and past infection offers no protection to the patient.

https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/syphilis/fact_sheet.htm