ECT Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

[SimpleMan77]

Bingo!

So let me get this right. Believing is like falling, it's not something you choose to do, it's just something you can't help doing. You choose to do something (actively believe) and that is solely based on something that you never made a choice on (faith). In other words complete predestination. God made the choice.

Here is a more burning question.

If someone hears the gospel, and says "yeah, I'm sure Jesus died, and I'm sure He died with me in mind, but that was too long ago and too irrelevant in my life, and I just don't care-I am going to live my life the way I have always chosen to live my life".

Where does that leave him/her?


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[SimpleMan77]

[MENTION=2492]Lighthouse[/MENTION] [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] [MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION]

So let me get this right. Believing is like falling, it's not something you choose to do, it's just something you can't help doing? You choose to do something (actively believe) and that is solely based on something that you never made a choice on (faith)? In other words complete predestination. God made the choice.

Here is a more burning question.

If someone hears the gospel, and says "yeah, I'm sure Jesus died, and I'm sure He died with me in mind, but that was too long ago and too irrelevant in my life, and I just don't care-I am going to live my life the way I have always chosen to live my life".

Where does that leave him/her?

See other posts directly above this. Awaiting your answers.


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[SimpleMan77]

I didn't say it was impossible to choose to reject it. But those who truly reject it believe it deep down, and they hate it.

But then there are those who are simply not convinced. And then there are those who pretend to believe it, maybe even fooling themselves.

And then there are those who are convinced and embrace it. But nobody chooses to be convinced; you either are or you are not.

When you learned that two plus two equals four how did that play out? Did you choose to believe it or did someone show you and convince you?

When I was told of Christ I knew the person telling me believed it. Truly believed it. I never felt that when adults were telling me about Santa or the Tooth Fairy, etc. I knew they didn't believe those stories. But they believed in Christ. He was different, because He was real. I knew it. I could tell.

P.S.
"Fall" is an action verb. People fall all the time without choosing to do so.

Still waiting on an answer.

Are these people saved (The ones who "believe it deep down, and they hate it")?

If believing is all it takes, then these people will be just as saved as the ones who love and embrace it
[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] how about weighing in on this as well?


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[Danoh]

Still waiting on an answer.

Are these people saved (The ones who "believe it deep down, and they hate it")?

If believing is all it takes, then these people will be just as saved as the ones who love and embrace it
[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] how about weighing in on this as well?


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Sm77, as is the case within all schools of thought, so it is within MAD - various MADs may or may not hold to an understanding that other MADs hold to and vice versa.

A lot of our understandings are the same.

That does not mean all our understandings are the same between us.

I suppose the following might be one we MADs all hold to.

You'd have to ask each MAD.

I believe that belief is a choice, be it a belief arrived at unawares, or not.

As God looks on the heart of one's decided mind on a thing, I have no problem with asserting that belief is not a physical work.

Man hears the gospel of our salvation, his conscience reviews its merit, at which point he decides either to agree with both its verdict and its offered solution...or not.

And either is an act of faith every bit as much as deciding whether or not to believe that a sign on a park bench announcing "Wet Paint" is true.

The Believer...having chosen to believe God against his own natural man's inclination not to...eventually comes to find that yes, God's will - that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth - is indeed...that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.

Faith is always just that - a leap of faith into what often appears to be an uncertainty - the face of what often appears to one's very being as nothing more than an assertion.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Lol - now quit arguing your conviction against my sound one and say a hearty Amen to that

 

[SimpleMan77]

Sm77, as is the case within all schools of thought, so it is within MAD - various MADs may or may not hold to an understanding that other MADs hold to and vice versa.

A lot of our understandings are the same.

That does not mean all our understandings are the same between us.

I suppose the following might be one we MADs all hold to.

You'd have to ask each MAD.

I believe that belief is a choice, be it a belief arrived at unawares, or not.

As God looks on the heart of one's decided mind on a thing, I have no problem with asserting that belief is not a physical work.

Man hears the gospel of our salvation, his conscience reviews its merit, at which point he decides either to agree with both its verdict and its offered solution...or not.

And either is an act of faith every bit as much as deciding whether or not to believe that a sign on a park bench announcing "Wet Paint" is true.

The Believer...having chosen to believe God against his own natural man's inclination not to...eventually comes to find that yes, God's will - that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth - is indeed...that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.

Faith is always just that - a leap of faith into what often appears to be an uncertainty - the face of what often appears to one's very being as nothing more than an assertion.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Lol - now quit arguing your conviction against my sound one and say a hearty Amen to that

I agree with Scripture (and much of what you have said in your commentary).

How did Abraham "consider not the deadness of Sarah's womb", and how did he "consider not his own body now dead"?

He chose to believe, then he climbed into bed with his wife, expecting some magic to happen between them that hadn't happened in years.

Paul is in no way removing obedience and actions of faith from the belief of faith. Faith is not faith without obedience and action.

If Abraham would have refused to have sexual relations with his wife, God would have said "you didn't really believe Me, did you?".


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[Danoh]

I agree with Scripture (and much of what you have said in your commentary).

How did Abraham "consider not the deadness of Sarah's womb", and how did he "consider not his own body now dead"?

He chose to believe, then he climbed into bed with his wife, expecting some magic to happen between them that hadn't happened in years.

Paul is in no way removing obedience and actions of faith from the belief of faith. Faith is not faith without obedience and action.

If Abraham would have refused to have sexual relations with his wife, God would have said "you didn't really believe Me, did you?".


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That's the problem with reasoning.

It always ends up one fool's reasoning against another's :chuckle:

Thus the ever needed solution - the question "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?"

Answer?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Of course, should you now attempt to bring in the reasoning of men about James 2 into the above, you should know in advance it is not going to fly - that James 2's case in point example is of Abraham AFTER he was in Circumcision.

Lol - this back and forth to nowhere....really gets old, at times.

 

[SimpleMan77]

That's the problem with reasoning.

It always ends up one fool's reasoning against another's :chuckle:

Thus the ever needed solution - the question "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?"

Answer?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Of course, should you now attempt to bring in the reasoning of men about James 2 into the above, you should know in advance it is not going to fly - that James 2's case in point example is of Abraham AFTER he was in Circumcision.

Lol - this back and forth to nowhere....really gets old, at times.

Lol. I agree that it doesn't look like we'll get anywhere.

I will say this: you will not find a single person in scripture who would have been commended for their faith if they had not had an "active faith". Not a single one.

Every one of their stories are the same.

Abraham minus obedience to leave his homeland = same result as Nimrod.

Noah minus obedience = death in flood

Moses minus obedience = a pharaoh's reward.

And on and on it goes. You will never, ever find a faith that can be called "faith" without obedience. Ever.


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[glorydaz]

[MENTION=2492]Lighthouse[/MENTION] [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] [MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION]

So let me get this right. Believing is like falling, it's not something you choose to do, it's just something you can't help doing? You choose to do something (actively believe) and that is solely based on something that you never made a choice on (faith)? In other words complete predestination. God made the choice.

It's difficult describing spiritual things with "words". This subject is a good example of that.

God is not willing that any should perish....to such an extent that he created us with the knowledge of His very Godhood in our being. He created us with a conscience to know good and evil, and he surrounds us with the glory of His majesty in all of Creation. Sadly, we live in a world of sin, so our sight dims and we become dull and hard of hearing. But, the Gospel, is a wake-up call that can only be answered when one is, dare I say, hungry enough. We may go through much of life hearing His voice but never loud enough to wake us from our "slumber". I, for one, was exposed to the basic Gospel many times, and over a period of time I was over-whelmed by something being "missing" in my life. Oddly enough, it was when some JW's came to my door and quoted John 1 saying Jesus was A GOD, that it hit me. I went in and dug out my old Bible and it didn't say that. I didn't choose to believe....but I got hungry. Then I realized I believed. Along with that "belief" (unlike the head knowledge I had before), I totally loved and trusted our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. What was to choose? He caught me, and for over forty years, I've been thankful He did.

Here is a more burning question.

If someone hears the gospel, and says "yeah, I'm sure Jesus died, and I'm sure He died with me in mind, but that was too long ago and too irrelevant in my life, and I just don't care-I am going to live my life the way I have always chosen to live my life".

Where does that leave him/her?

Not hungry enough, and still in unbelief. That's the difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge.

 

[glorydaz]

Lol. I agree that it doesn't look like we'll get anywhere.

I will say this: you will not find a single person in scripture who would have been commended for their faith if they had not had an "active faith". Not a single one.

Every one of their stories are the same.

Abraham minus obedience to leave his homeland = same result as Nimrod.

Noah minus obedience = death in flood

Moses minus obedience = a pharaoh's reward.

And on and on it goes. You will never, ever find a faith that can be called "faith" without obedience. Ever.


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That's because we are His workmanship. He created us IN HIM both to will and to do His good pleasure. There is no room for any of us to boast.

 

[Lighthouse]

So let me get this right. Believing is like falling, it's not something you choose to do, it's just something you can't help doing? You choose to do something (actively believe) and that is solely based on something that you never made a choice on (faith)? In other words complete predestination. God made the choice.

Nobody made the choice.

Here is a more burning question.

If someone hears the gospel, and says "yeah, I'm sure Jesus died, and I'm sure He died with me in mind, but that was too long ago and too irrelevant in my life, and I just don't care-I am going to live my life the way I have always chosen to live my life".

Where does that leave him/her?

Do you really consider that believing?

Also, that person has no faith?

This proves my point exactly, and my first post in this thread perfectly.

"Falling" is action caused by something out of a person's control. The person cannot choose to not fall.

If God chooses whether or not to trip us so that we fall, i.e. makes every choice for us, including the choice for us to believe, that is complete predestination doctrine.

I never said God made the choice.

In fact, I am an open theist. I don't believe in that type of predestination. Which is why it did not appear in my argument. You and your ilk really like straw men, don't you?

P.S. Don't confuse your testimony with the countless millions of people who hear the gospel from someone that they don't really know. It's one thing to know that you can trust someone well before they ever share the gospel with you, but quite another to hear about it like many do.

Again I repeat, I think that if you lived in a country where there was persecution, and every day brought a renewed threat of you or your family continuing to suffer for the name of Jesus, that you'd find many times wher believing would continue to be a choice you would have to make.

That's still not a choice to believe. You don't withstand that type of persecution and still stand by those beliefs if you chose to believe them.

Are these people saved (The ones who "believe it deep down, and they hate it")?

If believing is all it takes, then these people will be just as saved as the ones who love and embrace it

It takes faith. You know that.

Still waiting on an answer.

Are these people saved (The ones who "believe it deep down, and they hate it")?

Maybe because I wasn't here.:dunce::duh:

 

[TIPlatypus]

Vocalizing the words "I believe" = a work!

Confessing Jesus verbally is a "work". Consciously choosing to change your belief system is a work. Anything that doesn't happen subconsciously is a "work".

If you're not a hyper-Calvinist who believes that you are born to be saved or lost, regardless of if you ever obey one syllable of the Bible, where do you draw the line in trying to get away from "justification by works".

Is that line drawn at rejecting the requirement to obey all of the Mosaic law? Is it rejecting any kind of the slightest work? Is it left up to us to define? Or maybe obedience to the teachings of the New Testament is "obedience" and not "works".

If someone sees the commandment to be baptized, and rejects obedience to it, can they be justified by faith while refusing obedience? If they refuse to confess with their mouth, but believe are they justified. If they refuse to consciously change their beliefs to accept the Gospel are they justified?


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Surely the whole idea of God's grace is that we are given eternal life in heaven with God even though we do not deserve it. The punishment for sin is death, but Jesus took that punishment for us, so we get into heaven undeservedly.

All that remains is for us to accept Jesus as our lord and saviour and repent of our sins. After this, you have the holy spirit inside of you, and doing good works should be natural and easy. Doing good works does not get you saved. Getting saved allows you to do good works.

However, just saying things is not a work. Confessing Jesus is not a work. You can confess Jesus all day, but if it is not accompanied by anything, then it is surely false. So, your works are a proof to everyone around you that you have indeed been changed by the Holy Spirit and have accepted Jesus into your life, but they are not a requirement for salvation.

In regards to the laws in the old testament. We are not required to follow any of them. This isn't because they are bad, but because we should be doing good without needing to follow them, as Paul says in 1 Tim 1:8-11

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 

[patrick jane]

Vocalizing the words "I believe" = a work!

Hearing and believing is not a work -

 

[Danoh]

Hearing and believing is not a work -

Yeah, but he probably sub-vocalizes; which to him is a work :chuckle:

 

[SimpleMan77]

Hearing and believing is not a work -

I'm sorry, but anything you have to choose to do is a work. Believing in something you can't see is a choice, so it's included.


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