ECT Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

[Danoh]

Nicely done, Lighthouse.

I highlighted this because it's so well stated. :thumb:

Yep :thumb:

 

[Lighthouse]

Nicely done, Lighthouse.

I highlighted this because it's so well stated. :thumb:

Thank you.:E4e:

Yep :thumb:

And you as well.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Too simple to even get the joke.:doh:


I believe because I can't disbelieve. I have faith because I trust, and I trust because I have never been betrayed.

Why is faith the evidence of things unseen?

To paraphrase someone else whose name I do not know, "I do not believe in the wind because I have seen the wind; I believe in the wind because I have seen [and felt] the effects of the wind."

I believe some have commended LH for this post, and I also do on its poetic qualities.

It is unfortunate that it's not true in relation to the post it was referencing.

The subject was whether or not a person could choose whether or not to believe initially, WHEN THEY FIRST HEARD THE GOSPEL (the post was about finding salvation).

If anyone believes that they had no choice - that they believed BECAUSE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THEM NOT TO is either a very rare specimen of Christianity, or doesn't remember very well. When you hear it the first time it is absolutely possible to decide you don't want anything to do with it.

My guess is you also live in a place that there is no persecution against Christians. It is there that people, like John the Baptist in jail, have moments when they question and have to "fight the good FIGHT of faith".


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[Danoh]

I believe some have commended LH for this post, and I also do on its poetic qualities.

It is unfortunate that it's not true in relation to the post it was referencing.

The subject was whether or not a person could choose whether or not to believe initially, WHEN THEY FIRST HEARD THE GOSPEL (the post was about finding salvation).

If anyone believes that they had no choice - that they believed BECAUSE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THEM NOT TO is either a very rare specimen of Christianity, or doesn't remember very well. When you hear it the first time it is absolutely possible to decide you don't want anything to do with it.

My guess is you also live in a place that there is no persecution against Christians. It is there that people, like John the Baptist in jail, have moments when they question and have to "fight the good FIGHT of faith".


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SimpleMan, you completely misinterpreted his words...

 

[SimpleMan77]

SimpleMan, you completely misinterpreted his words...

Not true. My initial post was about whether or not believing was a work. That was in reference to whether or not you had to "do" anything to be saved.

My point was then, as it is now, that "to believe" is a work. "Believe" is an action word in anyone's dictionary. If somebody goes from being unsaved to saved by believing, they had to choose to "DO" that (believe).


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[SimpleMan77]

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

Not true. My initial post was about whether or not believing was a work. That was in reference to whether or not you had to "do" anything to be saved.

My point was then, as it is now, that "to believe" is a work. "Believe" is an action word in anyone's dictionary. If somebody goes from being unsaved to saved by believing, they had to choose to "DO" that (believe).


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...and my whole point was that if a person's beliefs require "doing" anything to be saved, then they are requiring at least some level of obedience (a work). If a person has to choose to go from unbelief to belief, that is requiring a work.

I repeat, "to believe", meaning to choose to place confidence in the validity of something, is an action verb.


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[Danoh]

...and my whole point was that if a person's beliefs require "doing" anything to be saved, then they are requiring at least some level of obedience (a work). If a person has to choose to go from unbelief to belief, that is requiring a work.

I repeat, "to believe", meaning to choose to place confidence in the validity of something, is an action verb.


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Lol - you call THAT reason?

That is your own notion.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Luke 20:5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith IS an active. It IS a decision.

But it is a spiritual one.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But it is not a work; which is physical.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

Lol - you call THAT reason?

That is your own notion.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Luke 20:5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith IS an active. It IS a decision.

But it is a spiritual one.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But it is not a work; which is physical.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All of those prove my point exactly. Somewhere all of them heard for the first time and chose to either do something or not do something, and that was either to believe or not believe.


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[SimpleMan77]

Lol - you call THAT reason?

That is your own notion.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Luke 20:5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith IS an active. It IS a decision.

But it is a spiritual one.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But it is not a work; which is physical.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

One example of some of the hypocrisy that I see on the "works" issue is a recent funeral sermon that I heard.

A preacher got up and said "you may ask me what you need to do to be saved, to which I will answer 'absolutely nothing'. The Bible says that where two or three agree as touching any one thing, it will be done for them, so right now I ask you to look me in the eyes if you want to be saved. When my eyes meet yours, we will be agreeing on it, and you will be saved."

Obviously this is only one person, but my point is that if you require any action at all in order to "be saved", you are requiring a work.

I actually believe that the Bible is clear that obedience is required for salvation, and "believing" is the first "act" of obedience.


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[Danoh]

One example of some of the hypocrisy that I see on the "works" issue is a recent funeral sermon that I heard.

A preacher got up and said "you may ask me what you need to do to be saved, to which I will answer 'absolutely nothing'. The Bible says that where two or three agree as touching any one thing, it will be done for them, so right now I ask you to look me in the eyes if you want to be saved. When my eyes meet yours, we will be agreeing on it, and you will be saved."

Obviously this is only one person, but my point is that if you require any action at all in order to "be saved", you are requiring a work.

I actually believe that the Bible is clear that obedience is required for salvation, and "believing" is the first "act" of obedience.


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Nope - it's the only "act" allowed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is what He ALONE DID and what HE ALONE DOES...AFTER that ye believed...

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Lighthouse]

I believe some have commended LH for this post, and I also do on its poetic qualities.

It is unfortunate that it's not true in relation to the post it was referencing.

The subject was whether or not a person could choose whether or not to believe initially, WHEN THEY FIRST HEARD THE GOSPEL (the post was about finding salvation).

If anyone believes that they had no choice - that they believed BECAUSE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THEM NOT TO is either a very rare specimen of Christianity, or doesn't remember very well. When you hear it the first time it is absolutely possible to decide you don't want anything to do with it.

My guess is you also live in a place that there is no persecution against Christians. It is there that people, like John the Baptist in jail, have moments when they question and have to "fight the good FIGHT of faith".

I didn't say it was impossible to choose to reject it. But those who truly reject it believe it deep down, and they hate it.

But then there are those who are simply not convinced. And then there are those who pretend to believe it, maybe even fooling themselves.

And then there are those who are convinced and embrace it. But nobody chooses to be convinced; you either are or you are not.

When you learned that two plus two equals four how did that play out? Did you choose to believe it or did someone show you and convince you?

When I was told of Christ I knew the person telling me believed it. Truly believed it. I never felt that when adults were telling me about Santa or the Tooth Fairy, etc. I knew they didn't believe those stories. But they believed in Christ. He was different, because He was real. I knew it. I could tell.

P.S.
"Fall" is an action verb. People fall all the time without choosing to do so.

 

[glorydaz]

I actually believe that the Bible is clear that obedience is required for salvation, and "believing" is the first "act" of obedience.

But you're talking about the Obedience of Faith, which is not a work or an act of man. Romans 16:26KJV

It's the result of the Power of the Gospel on sinful man. The Law of Faith is like the Law of Gravity...it just is. We don't have to obey anything for it to be there.

Romans 3:26-27KJV makes it clear to me. Lest men should boast.....

 

[Danoh]

But you're talking about the Obedience of Faith, which is not a work or an act of man. Romans 16:26KJV

It's the result of the Power of the Gospel on sinful man. The Law of Faith is like the Law of Gravity...it just is. We don't have to obey anything for it to be there.

Romans 3:26-27KJV makes it clear to me. Lest men should boast.....

Yep :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

All of those prove my point exactly. Somewhere all of them heard for the first time and chose to either do something or not do something, and that was either to believe or not believe.


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No, when someone chooses not to believe, it's because they don't believe. They haven't really been convinced (in their heart). Their head may be considering it, but that is not what matters.....plain and simple. When a person suddenly SEES, it's like he's just been resuscitated into life.

 

[Lighthouse]

No, when someone chooses not to believe, it's because they don't believe. They haven't really been convinced (in their heart). Their head may be considering it, but that is not what matters.....plain and simple. When a person suddenly SEES, it's like he's just been resuscitated into life.

Bingo!

 

[glorydaz]

Bingo!

Thanks, brother. It's really good to see you.

 

[Lighthouse]

Thanks, brother. It's really good to see you.

You too.

 

[SimpleMan77]

I didn't say it was impossible to choose to reject it. But those who truly reject it believe it deep down, and they hate it.

But then there are those who are simply not convinced. And then there are those who pretend to believe it, maybe even fooling themselves.

And then there are those who are convinced and embrace it. But nobody chooses to be convinced; you either are or you are not.

When you learned that two plus two equals four how did that play out? Did you choose to believe it or did someone show you and convince you?

When I was told of Christ I knew the person telling me believed it. Truly believed it. I never felt that when adults were telling me about Santa or the Tooth Fairy, etc. I knew they didn't believe those stories. But they believed in Christ. He was different, because He was real. I knew it. I could tell.

P.S.
"Fall" is an action verb. People fall all the time without choosing to do so.

This proves my point exactly, and my first post in this thread perfectly.

"Falling" is action caused by something out of a person's control. The person cannot choose to not fall.

If God chooses whether or not to trip us so that we fall, i.e. makes every choice for us, including the choice for us to believe, that is complete predestination doctrine.

P.S. Don't confuse your testimony with the countless millions of people who hear the gospel from someone that they don't really know. It's one thing to know that you can trust someone well before they ever share the gospel with you, but quite another to hear about it like many do.

Again I repeat, I think that if you lived in a country where there was persecution, and every day brought a renewed threat of you or your family continuing to suffer for the name of Jesus, that you'd find many times wher believing would continue to be a choice you would have to make.


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[SimpleMan77]

I didn't say it was impossible to choose to reject it. But those who truly reject it believe it deep down, and they hate it./QUOTE]

Are these people saved (The ones who "believe it deep down, and they hate it")?

If believing is all it takes, then these people will be just as saved as the ones who love it and embrace it


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[SimpleMan77]

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

I didn't say it was impossible to choose to reject it. But those who truly reject it believe it deep down, and they hate it.

But then there are those who are simply not convinced. And then there are those who pretend to believe it, maybe even fooling themselves.

And then there are those who are convinced and embrace it. But nobody chooses to be convinced; you either are or you are not.

When you learned that two plus two equals four how did that play out? Did you choose to believe it or did someone show you and convince you?

When I was told of Christ I knew the person telling me believed it. Truly believed it. I never felt that when adults were telling me about Santa or the Tooth Fairy, etc. I knew they didn't believe those stories. But they believed in Christ. He was different, because He was real. I knew it. I could tell.

P.S.
"Fall" is an action verb. People fall all the time without choosing to do so.

Are these people saved (The ones who "believe it deep down, and they hate it")?

If believing is all it takes, then these people will be just as saved as the ones who love and embrace it


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