It's too bad you hold this liberal view of the Bible. Why aren't you just an atheist since you can't trust anything?
Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)
- Thread starter Choleric
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genuineoriginal
New member
Are you sure that Paul never claims to have seen Jesus?
1 Corinthians 15:3-8 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. |
I trust the God of Jesus.
Not the God of Christian theology and worship.
Ask an atheist to tell you all about this God they say they don’t believe in.
They always describe the God of supernatural theism.
On the way tso Damascus, Paul heard a voice and saw a bright light.
He later identified the voice as coming from Jesus.
glorydaz
Well-known member
So from one verse you conclude Paul didn't see more than the bright light. But, Paul claims he did see the Lord. Ananias claims he saw the Lord, and our Lord, Himself, says Paul say him. Didn't you read the verses I gave you?
Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I've never seen people who work so hard to deny their God...except the Jews, and you can tell Paul hated having to tell them that Christ had come....."Who is over all, God blessed for ever."
Romans 9:1-5 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
musterion
Well-known member
Yes, and Paul says he saw Him too.
So your real point is, the Bible can't be trusted. Just go ahead and say it.
No you don't. You call God's word "forgeries." You trust liberal theologians. You trust your self. But, the one thing you don't trust is God.
i SAID
Context, context, context. What broke Pauls heart was the fathers who worship in the flesh and think that Jesus is according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. When Paul knew Jesus was NOT the eternally blessed God. But instead the eternally blessed Son of God.
[Rom 9:1-5
[1] I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
[2] that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
[4] who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God], and the promises;
[5] of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came], who is over all, [the] eternally blessed God. Amen.
Well...if you wish to get that technical...Paul didn’t hear the English name “Jesus” when he asked “who are you?” (also not in English)
Hated having to tell jews He had come? Ha
Paul was grateful he didn’t have to tell them Yahushua changed the customs of Moses delivered to them...which they accused him of...
at EACH of his trials he was quick to point out NOT ONE JEW or ANY EVIDENCE (like an epistle he wrote) was produced that implicated him in living or teaching their customs changed...but ONLY that One WAS RESURRECTED...all other accusations they could not prove...
imagine if Yahushua HAD CHANGED the customs Moses delivered to them...poor Paul would REALLY have hated to tell the jews..LOL
Happily he could comfort believing jews, MYRIADS of them, who were still zealous for the law that he neither lived nor taught such false witness that the customs were changed...Paul even took a vow to prove he still lived and taught others according to the Law...
What made that sect “the Way” heretical was their teaching One resurrected and was also for goyim...not that they ate Sunday Ham...they didn’t do that...lol
But yes imagine if they did...wow...hard sell ya dig?
Die To The Old Testament Law
[Jhn 10:1, 8-9
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ...
8 "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
[Gal 2:19, 21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. ...
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
[Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
[Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
[Heb 7:12, 18
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. ...
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
[Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
[Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
[Heb 9:13-18
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there [is] a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
18 Therefore not even the first [covenant] was dedicated without blood.
[Gal 3:11-14
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.
[Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
[1Co 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
[Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
XXX To die to the old testament law is required to be born again. The law is not of faith.
[Jhn 10:1, 8-9
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ...
8 "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
[Gal 2:19, 21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. ...
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
[Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
[Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
[Heb 7:12, 18
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. ...
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
[Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
[Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
[Heb 9:13-18
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there [is] a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
18 Therefore not even the first [covenant] was dedicated without blood.
[Gal 3:11-14
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.
[Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
[1Co 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
[Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
XXX To die to the old testament law is required to be born again. The law is not of faith.
All that and yet Paul is quite clear:
Rom 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
Yes...we “die to the Law” its curse specifically...the Law itself does not die...duh
We fulfill that Law when we love as He loved us BECAUSE it is AS HE LOVED US...in other words...the love He loved us with was according to His Father’s Will...you know His Law...the one you claim contains optional ones...
That is NOT loving JUST AS He loved us...
glorydaz
Well-known member
It says plainly what it says. Clear and obvious to all but those who refuse to see.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh yeah, but I didn't have to dig very deep to prove your error.
What custom....circumcision? The Jews certainly didn't like that change, did they?
What custom....righteousness coming from the law? The Jews didn't like that change, either.
you dug a hole...found no treasure...
You miss that it was FALSE WITNESS that customs were changed...in other words the customs were NOT changed and Stephen Peter John Paul James NO ONE taught nor lived that customs were changed...
In the OT circumcision was NEVER salvific nor required for goyim to live within their gates...
In the OT righteousness was NEVER from the Law...Abraham lived by FAITH...then works...they were saved before they were even given the LAW...duh...
NO CHANGE...
Is why NO JEW and NO EVIDENCE was presented at any of his trials that Paul lived or taught the customs were changed...Paul made a vow sacrifice to prove he was still zealous for the Law and taught the same...WE ESTABLISH LAW...oh and HIS LAW not our own version or variation...
Because it was FALSE WITNESS that attempted to slander that they lived or taught there was a change...
There are many, many different traditions and theologies in the Bible.
I think tradition of a loud voice and a bright light is the foundational one.
Christianity was and is a developing faith.
Later writers elaborated on those writers who came before them.
Every community of belivers wanted a Jesus that made sense to them..
One example of this is the anti-Semitic rants placed into Jesus’ mouth in the Gospel of John.
John 8:45
This was written near the end of the first century at a time when the Jesus people were being kicked out of the synagogues.
John’s community of believers thought it necessary to show a Jesus who hated the Jews who were splitting off from the Jesus people.
I trust the God of Jesus--not the God of Emnpire, violence, brutality and retributive justice.
I think tradition of a loud voice and a bright light is the foundational one.
Christianity was and is a developing faith.
Later writers elaborated on those writers who came before them.
Every community of belivers wanted a Jesus that made sense to them..
One example of this is the anti-Semitic rants placed into Jesus’ mouth in the Gospel of John.
John 8:45
This was written near the end of the first century at a time when the Jesus people were being kicked out of the synagogues.
John’s community of believers thought it necessary to show a Jesus who hated the Jews who were splitting off from the Jesus people.
I trust the God of Jesus--not the God of Emnpire, violence, brutality and retributive justice.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Of course there was a change, and PAUL brought that change. One new man is a change. God going directly to the Gentiles instead of through the Jews is a change. Being delivered from the law is a change.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Not being under the Law but under Grace is a change. The Jews were under the Law and you are trying to claim we are also. You're wrong.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
You're confused when you lump Paul in with the other apostles. To the Jews, he became as a Jew, but NEVER EVER attempted to put the Gentiles under the Law. In fact, the complete opposite.
1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, you don't even know God, and you slander the Bible to boot. :down:
ummm...now you sound like Squeaky who goes on and on and on about that same thing...despite His saying “think NOT I have come to”
you fulfilled your obligations as a citizen yesterday right? I mean I hope so...so what?...are the laws destroyed today because you fulfilled them yesterday? Think NOT indeed...
now you sound like those slandering jews who claimed Stephen was doing the same teaching that Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered...Luke is clear it was FALSE WITNESS
in fact believing jews still zealous for the Law were so concerned by the rumors they heard they had Paul take a vow to prove he was still walking orderly and keeping the law...
at NONE of his trials was a jew witness produced that could PROVE that false witness or those false charges...NO evidence like an epistle he had written...was produced to prove Paul was teaching the law changed...that would be against both the Temple and Rome...of which Paul claimed innocence of...
the ONLY charge was his teaching of One resurrected...Acts 23:6 24:21 imagine if he was living and teaching Sabbath was abolished jews could eat ham...LOL
it was already ONE LAW for jew and goyim alike long ago when He was head of the church in the wilderness...you know His house being a house of prayer for ALL nations...NOW THAT ONE NEW MAN IS A SOVEREIGN CITIZEN OF ISRAEL...not jewish as there is NO jew or goyim IN HIM...but obedient to Israel law citizen...
Oh wait...you believing fulfilling your role as a lawful citizen on one day destroys the law for the next day...LOL
stop being racist and so antisemitic...
His Son WAS jewish and lived the customs of Moses as a model for us to follow in the new covenant lifestyle...but you are intent to follow racist and anti semites who wished to divorce themselves of all things “desert god” superstitions so to make it a better sell for Europeans...
Salvation is of the jews is still valid...is WHY you are MAD...you’d rather follow racist antisemites who replaced the WALL He destroyed between jew and goyim...and live with GRACE ALONE than admit you are to live AS HE DID...
You would rather RAPTURE yourselves from the lifestyle of your Master or copy Paul or any first century disciple living “the Way” to merely eat Sunday Ham...or is it the shrimp?
We establish the law Paul was clear...the Law is good and HOLY still...or else how would Paul have learned about DO NOT covet?
See? Paul was aware other nations had laws too...do not steal do not murder do not false witness are all good laws...but do not covet was UNIQUE to a HOLY LAW and well obviously still binding...AS IT IS HIS ETERNAL LAW...He don’t change is the claim...
You fail to accept the LAW is HIS CHARACTER and what life will be like WITH HIM...
It is a description of the lifestyle we will live forever...
delivered FROM the law not delivered OF the law...we are still to serve in the Sprit which has us follow the Law...to LOVE AS HE LOVED US...according to the still binding law...
if the Law was done away with we WOULD NOT NEED GRACE...we are not under the curse of the Law...the death forever perished part...we still die but IN HIM ...NOT forever...
ALL have sinned not just jews...LOL
That Law remains and is the standard at judgement day when it will be judged if are you IN HIM doing as He did...or if you are just LORD! LORD! And NOT doing His Father’s will...
right you are NO LONGER a slave to Sin but a slave to Him...every day dying to self your former ways and made alive to Him His ways...NOT a one time once saved always saved grace abounds to do what thou whilst..
you missed he is clear he is not under the law...BECAUSE He is in Christ...therefore NOT UNDER ITS CURSE
You ignore verse 21 which deals with goyim...to those not having TORAH he claims not having the law THOUGH HE IS NOT FREE FROM GOD’S LAW BUT IS UNDER CHRIST’S LAW...
Now you just gotta show where the Son divides the house between His Laws and the alternate seperate contrarian Father’s law...
I have not met any christian that thinks they can worship another god, make idols, blaspheme His name, dishonor parents, steal, kill, commit adultery, LIE (ironic) or covet...
But ask about the Sabbath and then its “AWWW HELL NOOOO...we be under grace...OT abolished...that aint for us”...LOL
Some claim the OT law is abolished some accept the NT retains 9...one law is optional...and then there are those so MAD there is any accountability at all now insist NONE apply to them...they are RAPTURED FROM THEM...
Think NOT...our Master instructs...and yet...
Again you fail to appreciate that thy are NOT 10 LAWS but descriptions of what it is WITH HIM...WHERE HE IS...on earth as it is in Heaven...THY will be done...not ours...
Where He is there is no other god
Where He is there is no images to corrupt into idol
Where He is His name is USED
Where He is the Sabbath is kept
Where He is heirarchy is honored
Where He is no killing, stealing, LIEing, adultery, coveting
See? PERFECT...and HOLY...no change
Even the Jerusalem council of 49 AD had goyim keep OT levitical dietary laws...James concluded that he expected these goyim to continue to hear Moses preached and read EVERY Sabbath...in every city...
Paul was there and wrote his epistles after...you really expect him to live and teach contrary the jerusalem council too?
Nothing at his trials was produced he either lived or taught the law changed...
That was jewish false witness...