Except your 'basic, first Sunday school class lesson' is at odds with others. Heck, I don't recall this at me own those years back. If you're going to call people 'heretics' simply for not having this apparent 'basic' understanding of 'proper faith' then it's puzzling in turn why you'd dedicate a thread to the topic.
Yes, the bible is at odds with many, that is why they are called heretics. I dedicate a thread to it as to warn others by "marking" those who teach error. I wish I would have had this list when I first joined this forum. I didn't know there were so many heresies in the world. I had quite a few long, frustrating conversations with people, only to learn days later that they were teaching false doctrine. Had I had this list, I would have been able to avoid that.
All your previous thread did was invite objection and dischord. Grief, if you've got SD as an 'ally' then you really should look at things. She wouldn't know 'truth' from a stock car pile up. Look at her sig for crying out loud. Do you even consider what it must appear like for observers looking in to see supposed Christians bickering away over stuff?
It is not intended to invite any dischord, it is intended to mark heretics as a warning to others who may be harmed by their false teaching.
SD stands for truth, which is not pliable and is easily discernible by reading and believing the bible, which the Laodecian church has great trouble with.
Um, why do you suppose I asked you about your knowledge of the early church in regards to this subject? What do you actually know about the original texts and translations?
This statement is a direct result of the apostasy of the modern church. All truth is based on your "interpretation" of some extra biblical writing and some extant manuscript that you think is the way the bible "should" be worded.
I know quite a bit about the early manuscripts, having studied the topic a great deal. I know that the KJV agrees with 99% of existing manuscript evidence. I don't need to worry about the 1%, although many new bibles today are translated based on that 1% and are therefore, in the minority and are in error.
Why was eternal torment a minority school of thought at the time? Have you ever researched the topic to any degree? Unless you have you're in no position to say 'of course there is'.
Why in the world would I waste my time researching schools of thought on the matter? Why would I have reason to doubt what the bible says? I understand the temptation to do so, as I don't particularly like what I read there either, and I wish it wasn't so. But I am not going to go fishing for some "alternate meaning" to something so plainly taught just because I find it uncomfortable.
THat is what most people do. They find something they don't like in the bible, then find an excuse to erase that passage from their bible, or at least change the words a bit to say what they think it ought to say. Nobody benefits from that and it leads to heresy and eventually apostasy, which is what we have in the modern church.
Perhaps you can explain how death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire as well?
Sure thing. When a lost person dies, they go to hell, which is a prison, or holding ground for those who die without Christ. At the end of the millenium, the dead in hell will be resurrected in bodily form and will stand before the great white throne of God for judgment. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point and eventually hell itself, which is a giant prison in the center of the earth, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
The lake of fire is not in hell, and is not the same as hell. This is pretty simple stuff. Allow me to give it to you in chronological order using Scripture:
All people are appointed to a day of judgement:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The church will be raptured out prior to the Great Tribulation/ The church is told it will be kept from the "hour that is to come":
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Then there will be the great tribulation, which will last 7 years. At the end of that, those tribulation saints will be raptured/resurrected:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The millenium begins, and the devil is bound in the bottomless pit (not the lake of fire) for the whole thousand years and at the end is released one last time:
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
The unsaved dead, remain in hell for the full thousand years of the millenium:
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
After the thousand years, the devil is loosed and the final war takes place:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
It is at this point that the devil is cast into the lake of fire:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
notice the "beast and false prophet" are already there. They were cast into the lake of fire after the 7 year tribulation as we see in this verse:
Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
At this point the rest of the dead are raised to stand before God and be judged "according to their works", which is how all unsaved people will be judged:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
These are all found to be guilty of being law breakers and are sentenced to the lake of fire, and at this point, hell is empty and it too is cast into the lake of fire with death:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
If you notice the order of events, the lake of fire appears at the end of God's prophetic program, not at the beginning or middle. This is easy if we simply believe what we read. |
It would only explain why I don't believe in a cruel and capricious God choleric. The fact that you may equate that with 'not believing the bible' only goes to serve what you know or don't know about the above....
Why would I replace God's word with my opinion or fanciful imagination? That is foolish and only an arrogant person would attempt such a thing.
So....if someone were to read the bible sans Paul it would be effectively useless? :AMR:
No, but you would be like those who reject Paul...you would be attempting to get to heaven by being "good enough" instead of obeying Romans 10:3.
As far as I recall the gospel = 'good news'. Or is that too basic?
Far too basic. What is the good news? Is it that a man named Jesus came to earth to tell you about God (which is what those who deny the deity of Christ teach). Is it to tell you that you can work for your own salvation? (which is what those that teach salvation by works teach and is what those that reject Paul teach).
You have to allow the Scripture to define what the good news is.
It's quite bemusing that Paul himself never once makes mention of 'hell' then isn't it, considering what you believe it to be? What, wasn't it important enough or something?
He did.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Aside from that, Jesus mentioned hell quite plainly and thoroughly. You can only deny hell if you deny a large portion of your bible:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I could list dozens of verses where Jesus spoke of hell. This is pretty simple stuff. And attempting to explain it away by claiming somebody didn't believe Jesus' words 1900 years ago doesn't change anything at all. People haven't believed the bible for 4000 years, there is nothing new under the sun.
Well it wouldn't catch on if it was....
lain:
By God's eternal wisdom, His message has caught on quite well I would say.
So telling everyone else that if they don't believe the 'basics' as yourself they're wrong is simply 'repeating what you've read is it'?
Yes,
"ye are saved by grace though faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" is pretty easy to understand and repeat. As is
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. " Rom 11:6
You either believe it and get saved, or deny Pauls apostleship and get to work. But that will end you in the lake of fire.
As before, Paul never mentioned 'hell' the once in his ministry, so why was that considering the magnitude of such according to you?
Paul did and so did the Creator of the Universe and our Savior Jesus Christ. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?
You said you werent interested in marking others. You are essentially admitting to refusing to obey a command of Scripture. I guess you excuse yourself from such activity on the account that "Paul must have been having a bad day". It is ok if you don't feel it is your calling, but don't argue with those of us who obey.
Er, nope. I'm just opposed to using inflammatory insults and dialogue as conversation - unless I'm dealing with an obvious troll. Anything wrong with that?
Again, if you want to stand for nothing, that is fine with me, but don't take issue because I obey a direct command in an attempt to help others. Hell is a real place where real people go for a real eternity. Jesus said so, you can choose to ignore Him, but it isn't very wise...
lain::nono:
Yeah, ok, I'll give you that one....:chuckle:
:first:
