Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Logically there is a reason. He will come back and rule over His earthly Kingdom and during that time MORE people will be saved.
Of course a corpse knows nothing!
Salvation Through Mary?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Logically there is a reason. He will come back and rule over His earthly Kingdom and during that time MORE people will be saved.
Of course a corpse knows nothing!
keypurr
Well-known member
What I question Jerry is do we go right to heaven at our death, or lay in our graves for his return.
I think we all sleep til he returns.
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jsanford108
New member
At this point, I do not mean that Mary literally sacrificed her Son, as Abraham was going to do. However, recall the words of Simeon, that her heart would be pierced. Nowhere is Mary's heart literally pierced, but figuratively, with sorrow (ie: sacrifice). From this, we can deduce that her "sacrifice" occurs as a mother, with Christ's (her son's) death on the cross.
jsanford108
New member
Dear Marhig,
You bring up one of the most interesting points and arguments (in my opinion). The claim that Mary is not the Mother of God. I obviously agree that she is the Mother of Christ. But if she is the Mother of Christ, she is the Mother of God. How can this be so, right? She was not created before God, since God is eternal.
Allow me, if you will, to ask you a couple of questions. And feel free to answer as bluntly as you deem necessary.
1.)Is Christ God?
2.)Was Christ always God?
3.)Is Christ fully God and fully Man?
jsanford108
New member
This is a very simple question. But I am glad you asked it. Would you not agree, dear GT, that when we perish, we join Christ? And would you not agree that we are "one with Christ?" (1 Cor. 6:17) If we are united not just in Him, but with Him, doesn't that even make more sense with the term "one body?" Not saying we will all be literally combined into one body, but united in one single glory; the glory of God/Christ.
If the angels can hear the prayers of the world, and they are in heaven with our Lord, cannot the saved and sanctified, who God loves more than the angels, and wants to be closer with eternally, hear the prayers of the world, as well?
jsanford108
New member
Keypurr (great name if that is a pun),
If I may toss in my two cents worth, I believe we go straight to heaven or hell. As I pointed out when arguing against Clefty, Christ on the cross turned to the thief and said "today you will dine with me in paradise." If the thief was not going to paradise that day, Christ was deceiving. Now surely, with the belief in Christ, we know that Christ cannot deceive, for He is without sin. Also, recall on the mount, the transfiguration. Christ was conversing with Moses and Abraham. Also, when Christ rose, the graves were opened up and the souls ascended (Matt. 27:52). These verses further demonstrate that death does not contain us. Now, I do grant, that I believe most souls were in a state of limbo, if that is the correct term, awaiting the Resurrection. I do not think that the righteous went to hell, merely remained in a state of rest, yet not entering heaven. I do not mean that they "slept," but that they were in a location that was not of punishment, nor reward. Granted, this is just theory. I am basing this all upon a few verses, but none clarify my theory.
Angels are not all mighty...one in Daniel 10 was delayed 3 weeks before he could reach Daniel...
Mary is asleep...we don't need an advocate to our Advocate who is all mighty...
jsanford108
New member
I never claimed angels were almighty. They are definitely in heaven with the Almighty.
How do you know Mary is asleep? Provide evidence that you know, with reason and rational, that she is asleep. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that she is asleep. Nowhere does it say that we all are "asleep" once we pass from this world.
God's Truth
New member
How are people going to be saved when Jesus comes back for he will not come back to bear sin?
When Jesus comes back it will be at the great white throne judgment, the time he comes in the clouds and resurrects everyone and brings his saved ones in the sky with him; People will be put in the lake of fire. There will be a new earth, and that is when Jesus will live with us again, on the new earth; AND at that time, Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father.
Matthew 26:64
"You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)
Would you mind showing me where in the scriptures it shows that when Jesus comes again he will live on this world and reign?
Our physical bodies die but our spirits live on. Jesus is coming back to give us new bodies to live with him on the new earth.
keypurr
Well-known member
The verse contains a very famous comma friend. In translation from the Greek, which has no command, it was put in the wrong place. It should read as such:
"I say on to you today, you will be with me ......"
Three days later he said that he had not been to heaven yet.
In my studies I have found no verse that supports an instant ride to heaven at death. The spirit (life, breath) goes back to God who gave it. But the soul sleeps.
That is what I believe.
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jsanford108
New member
An excellent point on the original Greek. But what about Enoch (Gen. 5:22, Heb. 11:5) or Elijah (2 Kings 2:11)? Do these verses not portray direct ascents to Heaven?
God's Truth
New member
There are many scriptures that show we live on after the deaths of our bodies.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The believers who have died physically prior to His return will be with Him when He returns:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:13-17).
God's Truth
New member
So sad to here you say that Jerry Shugart. You are giving scriptures that support the resurrection but do not support the fact that our spirits do not die and do in fact go somewhere after the death of the body.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He has already died once and that death provides salvation for all those who believe. When the Lord Jesus returns He will sit upon His throne (Mt.25:31) and begin to reign:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).
During that time there will be people who will be saved.
God's Truth
New member
I understand that is what you believe; however, I gave you scripture that says when Jesus comes again it will NOT be to bear sin. So how are people saved without Jesus bearing their sin?
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What is sad is the fact that you cannot prove that anything which I said is false. These verses do show that the soul and spirit of a believer do go somewhere else--to be with the LORD in heaven.
Why can't you believe that?
God's Truth
New member
I KNOW those scriptures I gave do not prove our spirits go somewhere after the death of our bodies.
I gave scriptures that prove you wrong when you said Jesus will save more people when he comes back.
keypurr
Well-known member
I do not see in that verse where he says he is bringing the saints down when he returns to pick them up Jerry.
I also see no need for a purgatory. That to me is just another old pagan fable.
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Spitfire
New member
Salvation through Mary = Jesus
Jesus came to us through Mary. Not through her own power, no, but still, she was Jesus' mother and it through her that Jesus was entirely human as well as entirely God, and thus fit to serve as our redeemer.
So, there is no reason why anyone who believes that Jesus is our salvation should have a problem with this idea.
Sorry y'all spun a whole thread of 200+ posts for nothing.
Jesus came to us through Mary. Not through her own power, no, but still, she was Jesus' mother and it through her that Jesus was entirely human as well as entirely God, and thus fit to serve as our redeemer.
So, there is no reason why anyone who believes that Jesus is our salvation should have a problem with this idea.
Sorry y'all spun a whole thread of 200+ posts for nothing.