Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous, because that is what they believe that he is. If you believe that God chose "some certain persons" to be saved and damned the rest to hell, then you would be justified in believing that about God. They frequently refer to Romans chapter 9 to make their point. I have done an indepth study of Romans 9 and have found that their beliefs and accusations are false. This article is rather lenghty. Please bear with me.

Romans 9:1-5. The oracles of God were committed to the Jews. They were God's chosen people in the sense that it would be through the Jewish people that the savior of the world would come. Just as the Jews were the keepers of the law and the oracles of God, it was also God's plan that they would also be the keepers of the Gospel. It didn't completely work out that way.

Romans 9:6-9. "They are not all Israel which are Israel". Abraham had spiritual descendants and physical descendants. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are Gods people and are Christians. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau.

Romans 9:10-16. It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him. There is nothing in Romans 9 about Esau being predestinated to hell because he was hated by God. Esau represents the fleshy, ungodly, things of the world. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". This does not mean that God is fickled. This means that God is the one that shows mercy. We have nothing to do with God showing mercy or being compassionate. It is one of God's attributes. The point being made here is that God is merciful and compassionate.

Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.

Romans 9:22-27. Here we come to the "What If" scriptures. What follows the "What If" scriptures is NOT what God does. Paul is theorizing. "What if God was willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering on the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?" Paul is asking a question. Actually this is what God did when he sent his Son Jesus Christ into the world. We are all the vessels of God's wrath because we are all sinners. But God in his great mercy sends his Son Jesus Christ into the world to become sin for us. Verses 25 and 26 is about the Gospel going to the Gentiles so that they can be saved.

Romans 9:28-30. "For he will finish the work and cut it short" Jesus's ministry was only for about three years. That is how long it took him to defeat sin, death and the devil and in doing so perfected our humanity and took it back to heaven. Paul makes a comparison between the Jews that tried to be justified by the law and the Gentiles that were justified by faith. The Jews stumbled at the stumbling stone, who is Jesus and then ends the chapter with, "Whosoever that believes on him (Jesus) shall not be ashamed".
 

Brother Ducky

New member
Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust.

Exodus 4:21
21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. ESV
Exodus 7:3
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, ESV
Exodus 14:4
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." And they did so.
ESV
Exodus 14:17
17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. ESV

So maybe you need to rethink how you want to limit God.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Exodus 4:21
21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. ESV
Exodus 7:3
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, ESV
Exodus 14:4
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." And they did so.
ESV
Exodus 14:17
17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. ESV

So maybe you need to rethink how you want to limit God.


God hardens no ones heart, not even Pharoahs. Pharoah was a wicked ruler. God used him for his own glory.

Pharoahs heart was already hardened by his own free will. God simply capitalized on it.

You want to believe that God creates reprobates. God does not create reprobates, but he can use them for his purpose.

"And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice to let Israel Go? I KNOW NOT THE LORD, neither will I let Israel go" Exodus 5:2.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
they live in a world that is run the same way! so the spirit of this kingdom being run like a caste/pyramid system naturally would produce various programs, be they religious or secular to keep that mind set relevant among the lower levels of the caste/pyramid/servitude class etc......The propagandist of old foretold of a world where people would come to love their servitude which is disguised in those tried and trued patriotic/nationalistic/religious potions injected into them from birth certified to death certified creatures/strawmen created on paper who obey mans laws not their inner Divine heritage.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Perhaps you did not have the time to read the verses before you answered. Maybe you should do that and re-respond.

There is no other scripture that says God hardens anyones heart.

It is not in God's nature or character to harden someones heart. Unless like Pharaoh he knew that he would not repent of his evil ways, so he hardened his heart.

What the scripture means is that God confirmed that Pharaohs heart was hard. This is difficult scripture because it does not fit the rest of the Bible. It is out of Gods character.

Perhaps God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart and not let the Israelites go, so he hardened it further.

All that God does, he does in justice, mercy and righteousness. If you don't believe that, then you should not call yourself a Christian.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous, because that is what they believe that he is. If you believe that God chose "some certain persons" to be saved and damned the rest to hell, then you would be justified in believing that about God. They frequently refer to Romans chapter 9 to make their point. I have done an indepth study of Romans 9 and have found that their beliefs and accusations are false. This article is rather lenghty. Please bear with me.

Romans 9:1-5. The oracles of God were committed to the Jews. They were God's chosen people in the sense that it would be through the Jewish people that the savior of the world would come. Just as the Jews were the keepers of the law and the oracles of God, it was also God's plan that they would also be the keepers of the Gospel. It didn't completely work out that way.

Romans 9:6-9. "They are not all Israel which are Israel". Abraham had spiritual descendants and physical descendants. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are Gods people and are Christians. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau.

Romans 9:10-16. It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him. There is nothing in Romans 9 about Esau being predestinated to hell because he was hated by God. Esau represents the fleshy, ungodly, things of the world. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". This does not mean that God is fickled. This means that God is the one that shows mercy. We have nothing to do with God showing mercy or being compassionate. It is one of God's attributes. The point being made here is that God is merciful and compassionate.

Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.

Romans 9:22-27. Here we come to the "What If" scriptures. What follows the "What If" scriptures is NOT what God does. Paul is theorizing. "What if God was willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering on the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?" Paul is asking a question. Actually this is what God did when he sent his Son Jesus Christ into the world. We are all the vessels of God's wrath because we are all sinners. But God in his great mercy sends his Son Jesus Christ into the world to become sin for us. Verses 25 and 26 is about the Gospel going to the Gentiles so that they can be saved.

Romans 9:28-30. "For he will finish the work and cut it short" Jesus's ministry was only for about three years. That is how long it took him to defeat sin, death and the devil and in doing so perfected our humanity and took it back to heaven. Paul makes a comparison between the Jews that tried to be justified by the law and the Gentiles that were justified by faith. The Jews stumbled at the stumbling stone, who is Jesus and then ends the chapter with, "Whosoever that believes on him (Jesus) shall not be ashamed".

Invalid comments and evil speaking against God ! In Romans 9 Paul says not one word about Pharoah hardening his own heart !
 

bling

Member
Two things here.
The same actions by God can harden or soften a person's heart depending on how they accept the disciplining.
The other concept is: Deity would know when a person reached the point of never being able to accept God's Love and after that point they take on the lessor objective of helping others that have not yet but still can make the choice to accept or reject God's charity. Pharaoh could have reached that point very early in his life.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Two things here.
The same actions by God can harden or soften a person's heart depending on how they accept the disciplining.
The other concept is: Deity would know when a person reached the point of never being able to accept God's Love and after that point they take on the lessor objective of helping others that have not yet but still can make the choice to accept or reject God's charity. Pharaoh could have reached that point very early in his life.


Right, God knows who are his, he also knows who the reprobates are.

This doesn't mean that a reprobate cannot be saved. I have seen some unlikely people become Christians.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It is not in God's nature or character to harden someones heart. Unless like Pharaoh he knew that he would not repent of his evil ways, so he hardened his heart.

That is right and that idea is confirmed by the context:

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Ro.9:22).​
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
That is right and that idea is confirmed by the context:

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Ro.9:22).​


Yes, God has done all that he can do to provide salvation for fallen man. The ball is now in humanities court.

One thing that God cannot and will not do, is force someone to believe on his Son Jesus Christ.
 

Brother Ducky

New member
Josh 11:20
For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Josh 11:20
For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.


Their hearts were already hardened, Mark 8:17.

God is bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.

"One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the Lord your God, he it is that fights for you, as he has promised you" Joshua 23:10.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
There is no other scripture that says God hardens anyones heart.

It is not in God's nature or character to harden someones heart. Unless like Pharaoh he knew that he would not repent of his evil ways, so he hardened his heart.

What the scripture means is that God confirmed that Pharaohs heart was hard. This is difficult scripture because it does not fit the rest of the Bible. It is out of Gods character.

Perhaps God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart and not let the Israelites go, so he hardened it further.

All that God does, he does in justice, mercy and righteousness. If you don't believe that, then you should not call yourself a Christian.

"Unless like Pharoah He knew he would not repent of his evil ways"

But according to you God is not allowed to know such things about ANYONE...God is not allowed to foreknow and predestine and choose....

Pharoah and Moses
Cain and Abel
Caiphas and Christ
Herod and the Baptist

ALL may be the children of God according to Pate

Sheep and goats
serpents and doves
wheat and tares
sons of God and children of the wicked one.

All are the same, God doesn't know which is which.

Actually it is the church under this theology which doesn't know, which is why the church by and large is in such a mess.
 
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