:yawn:
I could say the same about Bob's
The Plot. But I don't say that it's required reading, nor does he.
Thankfully, I'm not necessarily a "sola scriptura" person, though I do prioritize scripture above all else.
As such...
... the point I had made was not "don't use extra-biblical sources, but rather to not state that an extra-biblical source is required reading to understand the Bible.
The thread is still here, and you can know that I have not changed what I said in Post #61, which is that I
recommend that you listen to it, not that you are required to listen to it.
Had you refused to listen to it, then I would not have said, "you must listen to it in order to understand the Bible, because that would be false. You don't have to listen to it. You never did.
But you did listen to it, and for that I am grateful, because not many people are intellectually honest enough to hear out their opponent's arguments. So for listening to the episode, THANK YOU.
Had you not listened to it, I would have been disappointed, but I would have then attempted to convey what was said in the episode to you regardless, because what was said was and is still evidence against your position, which you so far have not addressed. More on that below.
My first question is this:
When one is trying to determine the validity of the Bible and what is said therein, would it be logically sound (aside from trying to determine the internal consistency of the Bible) to use the Bible to prove itself?
The answer is NO, because that would be begging the question.
Assuming the Bible is correct when trying to determine if what the Bible said is correct is logically fallacious.
In what way were Bob and his guest "avoiding" scripture?
They're trying to determine the exact order and timing of a specific event IN SCRIPTURE!
0:56 in the audio, Bob specifically says "three days and three nights in the tomb," directly quoting scripture, just not spelling out which verse it is He's referring to.
"Avoiding scripture," my foot. Multiple times they reference passages of scripture, especially when talking about the 7 feasts and when they were supposed to be celebrated, which are what one should use to determine when Christ was crucified, because they limit the days on which He COULD be crucified and it still match scripture.
You should take a leaf out of your own book.
2:07 Bob asks Dr. McMurtry to lay out the topic and the issue at hand.
Dr. McMurtry then does exactly that.
Which has never been in contention, and again, which is affirmed at the very beginning of the show.
Again, "three days and three nights" is not not in contention. What IS in contention is your understanding of what "three days and three nights" actually means WITHIN the context of the Hebrew culture, and not your modern understanding of what day and night means.
You seem to be confused on what was said about 2.5 days.
Allow me to quote what was said below.
To be quite honest, that seems to be you yourself as well.
And you cling to one man's interpretation of what scripture plainly says, rather than letting scripture and the evidence speak for itself.
Again, I could say the same thing about
The Plot, but I don't say it's required reading, because you could just as easily read the Bible to obtain the information presented within.
So what's your point?
Again, I point to 0:56 into the show.
I think you've completely misunderstood me.
I think you should take what Jesus said EXACTLY as He said it, within the context of what He said, and within the context of Scripture as a whole.
No, that would be "in four days."
Jesus said "in three days."
The end of 72 hours is AFTER the beginning of the FOURTH day, according to the way the Jews determined days. I explain this below.
You still have not addressed my question.
Do you deny that Paul stated clearly that Christ rose the third day, rather than after it?
Not in dispute.
So, are you then suggesting, according to your position, that Christ was crucified at midnight on Wednesday (aka 00:00 Thursday morning) or sometime before, and was resurrected on Saturday night at midnight (00:00 on Sunday morning) or sometime before?
Because that would be woodenly literally "three days and three nights" (72 hours) from the end of the Sabbath (which is the last day of the week in Hebrew culture).
The Bible says that Jesus was on the cross, and that the Sabbath (not the weekly sabbath, but the high sabbath, which is according to the SECOND calendar mentioned, not the first) was approaching, and because it was a sabbath, the Jews (because of their laws) needed to get Jesus down before the beginning of the sabbath, because no work was allowed on ANY sabbath day, because it was a holy day for them.
Most people would assume (because they haven't done the research) that that sabbath day would be a saturday, and thus that Christ was crucified on a Friday.
I, Bob, and Dr. McMutry, disagree with that position, because it quite clearly disagrees with the fact that Christ rose on a Sunday (Easter Sunday, or Resurrection Sunday), and which you also apparently disagree with.
Your story doesn't fit the facts.
See below.
Here are the facts:
REGARDLESS of what day of the week it was, the Passover lamb MUST die by 3 pm on the 14th day of Nisan. Christ, whom the Passover lamb is a symbol of, would ALSO have to have been dead by 3 pm on the 14th day of Nisan.
It was mentioned in the show (and you can fact check this) that the Hebrews use not one but TWO calendars, one for keeping track of the yearly cycle, and the second is for the different feasts. This second calendar contains the High Sabbaths, the special Sabbaths, called "Shabbaton" which are associated with specific calendar dates. Passover MUST occur on the 14th, the lamb MUST die by 3 pm, the lamb MUST be selected on the 10th day of Nisan, 4 days later, you slaughter the lamb at 3 pm, that EVENING (not at sundown, but about 90 minutes AFTER sundown) it becomes the 15th, which is the first day of the Week of Unleavened Bread. In the middle of that "week" (not the normal Sunday to Saturday we would consider a week, but only a period of seven days), they (the Hebrews) celebrate First-Fruits, the 17th day of Nisan, First-Fruits is interchangeable in the Old Testament with the resurrection.
Then, the Feast of Unleavened Bread lasts for 7 days, however, the Jews say the Passover is included with term of the Week of Unleavened Bread, as an 8 day celebration.
Passover is not a High Sabbath, but it does occur on the 14th day of Nisan regardless of what day of the week it is. Unleavened bread starts on the 15th day of the month, regardless of what day of the week it is.
So what happens?
20:30 in the show (roughly):
| "We have 8 days altogether, starting with the 14th, the 15th, the 17th being the first three major feasts all in an 8 day period. Now, the lamb must be selected on the 10th day of the month. The year Jesus died, the tenth day of the month was a SUNDAY. And he rode into Jerusalem, He completes some prophecies, He is selected as the lamb by the people, Hosanna save us now. Four days later, the same people say, you know, slay this one he's perfect because the lambs were inspected for four days to be sure that they would be perfect. That's according to the law of Moses. That means that if you have Him come in on Sunday, the 10th day of the month, Thursday is the 14th. That's irrefutable. So Wednesday night, He has the last supper. It's not on Thursday night, it's on Wednesday night because that's when it becomes the 14th day of Nisan. It's in the evening. He then leaves the last supper, walks across the Valley of the Kidron, they are singing the Halel, that's described by John. And He is arrested at the foot of the Mount of Olives sometime around midnight. He is taken to two legal trials, but this is still Wednesday night, but it's the 14th day of Nisan, He's condemned in the morning about 6am by Pilate, He is crucified, nailed to the cross at 9 am, it turns dark in the middle of the day, He dies at 3pm, leaving 3 hours for the body to be taken down and interred in the ground prior to the sunset. Because the tomb was already there and prepared and his disciples knew what was going to happen. Now that means that on Thursday, he dies at 3 pm. That evening it becomes the first day of unleavened bread, that's the 15th, so Thursday night and friday during the day are the 15th but that's a Shabbaton, it's an extra special high Sabbath. Following that on Friday night and Saturday it is the 16th day of Nisan, but that's the regular shabbat, that's the regular weekly shabbat. Saturday night, it becomes the 17th and sometime during the night of Saturday night, Sunday morning early, while it's still dark, the resurrection occurs, the women come to the tomb and find the stone rolled away at about 6 am on Sunday morning the 17th, which is the Feast of Firstfruits. ANYBODY who looks at the Jewish calendar can figure that out, it's absolutely black and white. But in addition to that, we can prove it scripturally. If you start at Matthew 28 verse 1, read it in the Greek, because in the English translations it will say "early on the Sabbath," but in Greek it is not shabbat, in the Greek it's "Shabbaton." |
At this point, Bob jumps in, bringing up a Greek translation, and confirms exactly what Grady said at the end, and here is the text in question, in Greek:
Thankfully, I'm not necessarily a "sola scriptura" person, though I do prioritize scripture above all else.
I do not know how you define sola scriptura, but form me, sola scriptura is referring to where God's word and will by His sole authorship is found as a written document
God's word and will in written form is found only in scripture. Most certainly, that word and will has been copied and found in other books, but the written source that is God's doing is scripture.
Indeed, we must learn to use sources outside of scripture for additional information regarding Biblical language, culture, figures of speech, true science.....
However, Scripture stands alone as the sole source of the document authored solely by God for our benefit and instruction
It is plain to anyone, I would think, that if the scripture contains the word "camel" for instance, and we do not know what a camel is and scripture does not define camel, then we will have to go to an outside source of reference to find out what a camel is if we are to better understand the passage that the word camel is found in.
My first question is this:
When one is trying to determine the validity of the Bible and what is said therein, would it be logically sound (aside from trying to determine the internal consistency of the Bible) to use the Bible to prove itself?
The answer is NO, because that would be begging the question.
Assuming the Bible is correct when trying to determine if what the Bible said is correct is logically fallacious.
Well, you have a point there, however, if that is the only way to prove things, then there is much that we cannot prove, in science and in other fields of learning
If you have to go outside of science to prove science, how you do expect to prove science?
If you want to prove that the universe exists, then how you propose we go outside of the universe to prove that the universe exists, Where can we go?
If I want to prove that a cookbook is worthy of my investment to cook a recipe out of it, the way I do that is by trying out a recipe accurately and viewing the results in view of the promised results.
The internal evidence that I have regarding the veracity of scriptures is two fold to start with. First, is the scripture consistent and logical? Yes, it is. Secondly, does deliver the promised results when believed, that it says it will deliver? It does.
Therefore, from learning and testing the internal evidence, I am absolutely certain that the scripture is accurate, and reliable beyond a shadow of a doubt.
In what way were Bob and his guest "avoiding" scripture?
It seemed, (I did not measure and analyze the times spent discussing various issues), but I remember my patience being tested for a long time wondering if they were actually going to start talking scripture. Seems to me, it may have been only one verse actually referred to in the first ten minutes.
For your information, I got so weary of hearing about many topics excluding scripture that I quit listening at about the ten minutes into it.
Yes, they brought up background history and culture and some other topics, which for the most part should be useful for a neophyte. But after a while, I began to wonder if they were willfully avoiding scripture.
I guess, I may have been "spoiled" by the teachers I have learned from. They are all loaded with scripture to show how scripture supports scripture or as I Corinthians 2:13 statees
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
When the bulk of what I hear is the words that man's wisdom teaches, I tend to turn away, if I am seeking to learn God's words and will. or as this verse states that "which the Holy Ghost teacheth" for I am interested first and foremost in those things which the Holy Spirit teaches in His written word.
Or as the saying goings, when all else fails, read the instructions!
Since I have made it clear that as you put it, "days' by itself could mean a variety of time periods, yet you ignore your own statements, I see no reason to repeat myself, you can reread what I said.
Likewise, "three days and three nights" is very specific. There are not three days and three nights within a 2.5 day time frame, thus you ignore Jesus' specific statement of the time period involved,
Since you prefer your 2.5 day hypothesis over Jesus' specific words, I have to wonder what other clear statements of Jesus' and in scripture in general that you fluff off because of your preferred preconceived notions, traditions, emotions and distractions.
Do you deny that Paul stated clearly that Christ rose the third day, rather than after it?
That Jesus rose the third day is indisputable.
that is not the question, the question is how, how, how, you do the counting.
if you start with "1" then error is axiomatic.
He was buried,entombed in the evening of the 14th of Nisan, a short time before the evening which would have been a sabbath, a high day, for the fifteen is the Passover, the high day which is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread.
the first day ended 24 hours later, the second day 18 hours later, and the third day, 72 hours later, after the legal requirement of being interred for 72 hours was fulfilled, God raises him from the dead. Note: we must count the moment he is first interred as 0 seconds, not one second, For example, the time taken from start to finish of say, a 100 meter foot race starts at zero seconds, not at one second. Thus in the 72 hours after the zero moment, God raised Jesus from the dead, to die no more.
To shed more light on the phrase "in three days" let us look more closely at the foot race example.
If indeed, someone ran the 100 meter dash "in nine seconds" what does that mean? It means that it took 9.0 seconds for that runner to run that distance.
In other words, "in nine seconds" means "nine seconds passed" for that runner to run that distance
That is it took 9 seconds to cover that distance, since he ran it in nine seconds, nine seconds have passed for him to finish the race. Nine seconds passed for him to finish the race. Then being past the finish line he clearly won.
So indeed, three days had passed, then, Jesus was raised from the dead.
Remember, no time has passed at zero seconds, nor at zero days, time starts once you get past zero, not a moment sooner
The precision of God's word is almost unbelievably accurate. Three days had passed for him to reach his finish line, then he was raised up,
No, that would be "in four days."
Jesus said "in three days."
2.5 days is not three days but 2.5 days
The Bible says that Jesus was on the cross, and that the Sabbath (not the weekly sabbath, but the high sabbath, which is according to the SECOND calendar mentioned, not the first) was approaching, and because it was a sabbath, the Jews (because of their laws) needed to get Jesus down before the beginning of the sabbath, because no work was allowed on ANY sabbath day, because it was a holy day for them.
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an
high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
So, are you then suggesting, according to your position, that Christ was crucified at midnight on Wednesday (aka 00:00 Thursday morning) or sometime before, and was resurrected on Saturday night at midnight (00:00 on Sunday morning) or sometime before?
Because that would be woodenly literally "three days and three nights" (72 hours) from the end of the Sabbath (which is the last day of the week in Hebrew culture).
Where did you get that from?
He died on Wednesday the fourteenth of Nisan, was buried before the evening, the beginning of the fifteenth of Nisao, the Passover, which is the first day of the seven, not eight day, feast of unleavened bread.
It is not eight days,
it is seven days.
Had you and your "teachers" had done your homework, you would would have known that, because you would have read that from scripture.
Exodus 12:15-20
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.
Like I said, I was and am deeply disappointed by the lack of scripture in your presentation
Leviticus 23:6-8
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
it could not be written any plainer
The fest of unleavened bread is a seven day feast the first day, on the fifteenth is the referred to Passover which is a high day, a holy convocation, as it the seventh day of the feast.
Forgive me for being impatient, but humility is evidently not part of your teachers' theology.
Had they taken the years and years, even decades that Dr. Wierwille and his staff of researchers took to study the scripture on this subject, you might have learned something more than speculation,
Based on your teachers' ignorance of scripture, I am saying for them, the book I referred to, "Jesus Christ our Passover" is required reading if they actually want to learn scripture in their lifetime.
Otherwise ,they will continue to flounder and guess and speculate to their loss and to all their pupils' loss of time and and most importantly understanding of scritpure.
