ECT Romans 11:25-36 can't be erased (Israel's Vision will be restored)

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Land/earth, baby:

According to The Holy Bible, the land in dispute, upon which the "Palestinians" wish to form a state, was granted to Israel, not us, the body of Christ. Because the LORD God has granted the land to Israel, the ownership is theirs, not ours. The Lord God's stated intention is that the regathered Israel would "dispossess" other peoples from the land designated for them. (Isaiah 54:2-3 KJV). Anyone even vaguely familiar with the covenants between the LORD God and Israel should understand that the land grants that God unilaterally conveyed upon Israel are an integral part of those covenants. This same land is being contended for by other parties who are in opposition to Gods declared intentions-the Arabs(Ishmael's family, Essau's family...............). Israel will be "...the chief of the nations..."(Jer. 31:7 KJV), on earth, on their land promised to them, not us, unconditionally by the LORD God. And replacement theology, like the actors of Islam, hold hands in this doctrine-they only disagree as to whose land it is.

The culmination of the LORD God's redemptive plan,which includes both both spiritual, and physical,despite protests to the contray, will only occur in conjunction with the spiritual restoration and physical rejuvenation of the believing remnant of the nation Israel. This is one of the primary themes of the prophets, stated over and over in the Holy Bible. Without an appreciation for the significance of the role Israel will play in the future, one cannot properly begin to grasp Gods prophetic program, as replacement theology demonstrates.

And what would the Jews being looking towards when the Lord Jesus Christ and John the Baptist came upon the scene? The physical restoration of their kingdom! And hence- the "gospel", the "good news" of the impending kingdom ON EARTH , "the gospel of the kingdom."

The Messiah, the Christ, had appeared, and all that had been written about Him would certainly be fulfilled, and all the covenants the LORD God made with the Jews, including the land covenant, "the promises made unto the fathers"(Romans 15:8 KJV), not the body of Christ, will be fulfilled. And those that shake their fist at the LORD God, will have their traps shot, eventually, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"(Romans 11:29 KJV).The Holy Bible is replete with many depictions of the LORD Gods rule over all the world from Jerusalem, with the Jews as "the chief of the nations"(Jer. 31:7 KJV), a rule of justice and goodness and peace, were at the forefront of Jewish thought when the Lord Jesus Christ appeared. When the heralds of the "good news", which is "the gospel of the kingdom"(not the gospel of Christ, as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV)proclaimed that the kingdom was at hand, that could only mean one thing: the King was here, the Lord Jesus Christ,and it was time for Israel to assume her role as the "chief of the nations", on earth, "a kingdom of priests,"on a land promised to her, not the body of Christ, with the King of Israel ruling over her and the world, nations.

David was king of Judah and over all of Israel. Mary was promised that Jesus would "reign over the house of Jacob [Israel] for ever...on the throne of his father David," per Luke 1:32-33 KJV.

Davids throne was not in "the third heaven/heavenly places," but in Jerusalem. David never ruled from "way up there yonder," despite you "Jethro's/Jethrine's" grumblings, nor will the Lord Jesus Christ rule over Israel restored to her land from heaven, but from earth.


As we know, all was not immediately fulfilled in His first appearance. However, all of these prophecies will be fulfilled in His second appearance, "the second time," per Hebrews 9:28 KJV,just as David appeared unto his brethren "the second time," per Acts 7:13 KJV/Genesis), and all covenants will be fulfilled shortly thereafter. The Lord Jesus Christs' "gang" understood this, asking Him just before He departed from them, "Lord, wilt at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"(Acts 1:6 KJV) These "unlearned and ignorant men"(Acts 4:13 KJV)men understood that the fulfillment of the kingdom, and the restoration of the believing remnant of the nation Israel to the place of world preeminence, are intimately connected events, and yet many self-acclaimed "religious experts", such as those Replacement "Theology" scammers/thieves/robbers, do not, as intellectual manure is shoveled out at many seminaries,or, more aptly "cemetaries." Their fallacious arguments are refuted based on a literal reading of the Scriptures. But they continue their over-"spiritualization" of "the volume of the book," and thus, "the church," allegedly inherits the land.

Again:David was king of Judah and over all of Israel. Mary was promised that the Lord Jesus Christ would "reign over the house of Jacob for ever..."on "...the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:32-33 KJV). Davids throne was not in "the third heaven/heavenly places," but in Jerusalem. David never ruled from "the third heaven/heavenly places," nor will the Lord Jesus Christ rule over Israel restored to her land from "the third heaven/heavenly places," but from earth. The body of Christ will reign in the heavenlies, and has NO LAND INHERITANCE.

A rule of justice and goodness and peace on earth today,a time "...as the days of heaven upon the earth...(Deut. 11:21 KJV)? Right. Keep on spinning, like a top, you thieves/robbers/charlatans...


The believing remnant...

Romans 9 KJV
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;






The LORD God's plan....Install His King, on earth....

Psalms 2
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

And He will be glorified, honored, ALONE, as KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, on earth, FOR WHAT HE DID 2000+ years ago, ALONE, faithfully honoring God the Father, trusting His promises to Him,.............



.....and those who do not honor Him, on earth, will face judgment, on earth.....Land, baby...


Zechariah 14 KJV

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited........


16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Isaiah 2:3 KJV

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.


Micah 4:2 KJV

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

...and He will also, unlike man, be faithful, to the believing remnant of the nation Israel....



....all to the glory of God....



Isaiah 46:13 KJV

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.


Memorize that.
 
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john w

New member
Hall of Fame
The thing about D'ists posts is that the chapters that explain what happened are never quoted by D'ists, like Eph 2-3. They think they know the topic but it is seldom as described by the Bible. The NOT syndrome takes over to make room for the Scofield-Darby-Chafer system that makes sense out of a Bible that does not make sense.
Yes, we do, as we discuss Roman-Philemon, at length, Merlin, but you delete most of the book, what we expound, waving your magic wand, and with mere sound bytes, from your spam gun, which you load up, craftily dismiss them.

And please give us another "Darby-Chafer system" spam, admitted "flAt earth" proponent, and who asserts, on record, that the person term "God the Father" is made up.


You're a faud, a 2 bit poser,Reppy, and a thief/robber.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
There is nothing geographic.

Your view that those things (future, Israel only, geographic) are there in the text is spastic.... A FAIRY TALE.
You little devil, hypocrite, as he dismisses, out of one side of his mouth, hundreds of terms like "land," with "nothing geographic," and, out of the other side of his mouth, spouts, grunts, hisses,...


You subtract because you don't agree to the plain language there:

Which side of your face do you want slapped, butch, as the only FAIRY TALE/FAIRY, on this site, re. doctrine, is you?


Face you, robber, thief, magician Merlin....defiled, seared conscience, and all.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever." Ezekiel 37:25 KJV


Merlin Interplanners's magic wand shtick:



And the Church shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, but 'the Church' is Jacob, wherein your fathers have dwelt; but now 'the Church' dwells, and they , 'the Church', since it has replaced Jacob/Israel, shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be 'the Church''s prince for ever."


Vs.



You subtract because you don't agree to the plain language there:


"Plain language," you muse, fraud, magician?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever." Ezekiel 37:25 KJV


Merlin Interplanners's magic wand shtick:



And the Church shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, but 'the Church' is Jacob, wherein your fathers have dwelt; but now 'the Church' dwells, and they , 'the Church', since it has replaced Jacob/Israel, shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be 'the Church''s prince for ever."


Vs.





"Plain language," you muse, fraud, magician?






The plain language in Acts 2 and 13 and Rom 1 as I referenced.

As for Ezek, find the NT quote on it first. When there is none, go with the template. the template is that Christ is the temple, Jn 2, Eph 2, Rom 12, I Pet 2, Rev 22, etc.

IP--un-frauding D'ism's frauds daily!
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
The plain language in Acts 2 and 13 and Rom 1 as I referenced.

As for Ezek, find the NT quote on it first. When there is none, go with the template. the template is that Christ is the temple, Jn 2, Eph 2, Rom 12, I Pet 2, Rev 22, etc.

IP--un-frauding D'ism's frauds daily!

You little devil, fraud, with your magic wand, vile sorcerer, and intoxicated demon, with your "plain language" assertion, and then deleting 95% of the "plain language" of the book, with mysticism, Buddhism, "spiritual" raping of the simple words, the plain language of the book.


You're a poser, frauds clown, Butch. Be gone, demon.
 

Hawkins

Active member
I can list one of the possibilities here.

You need to first realize that Man once upon a time is considered completely not savable. From the time of Adam till Noah, Man is proven not savable by Law. Man should have been destroyed as a whole by water. It means that Satan had successfully screwed up God's plan of bringing humans to the future Heaven. God's plan of building such an eternity which we call Heaven was thus defeated.

However, God has Jesus Christ. God is so awesome and clever that through the blood of Jesus Christ He can now grant a series of covenants to bring salvation to these once so unsavable humans.

Now today's Jews all seem to be so unsavable. Is it possible for our awesome and clever God to save the unsavable again as He did before?

Jews are basically under the covenant granted to Moses, which came with a set of Law known as Mosaic Law. Jews need to observe this set of Law to a said standard such that they will be saved through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is deemed to be an "eternal" covenant (to the Jews). Each and every covenant has a scope of humans under its coverage. Under the Mosaic covenant (let's call it so), the scope of humans under its coverage is the Jews (and converts).

However the Bible says that the proclaiming of the (Mosaic) Law and Prophets is up to John the Baptist, since then we need to preach the New Gospel instead. The significance here is that humans after John the Baptist won't be saved by observing the Mosaic Law simply because they can't abide by this set of Law to its said standard (with Moses to be the accuser). It thus no longer accepts any converts ever since John the Baptist. All gentiles will have to rely on the New Covenant to be saved.

Today's Jews when measured by the same standard of Mosaic Law, they should be the unsaved. It is a similar status of humans in Noah's time. Now what are today's Jews?

The definition of a Jew (in terms of God's covenant, not man's dictionary) is,

- one who is by bloodline a Jew
- he's circumcised on the 8th day (today's practice is till several months after birth)
- he has a consent to abide by Mosaic Law when he becomes an adult (today only the Orthodox Jews choose to abide by Mosaic Law, from what I heard)
- he must not stand in the way of Christianity (by the definition of Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9)

These are the Jews. If any of the above 4 conditions are not fulfilled, then one is a gentile even though by bloodline he's a Jew.

These Jews are the Israel Paul was referring to in Romans 11. Now all left is how can they be saved if they are not savable in terms of how Mosaic Law should be observed?

David is a murderer, an adulterer in terms of Mosaic Law. How can he be saved? Similarly to Paul who is a persecutor of Christians. They are saved simply because they are chosen to be the witnesses of God. In nature Paul is a summoned prophet, though given the title Apostle. He's different from the twelve, he's summoned the same way as all other OT prophets. It shows that God's chosen witnesses can be legitimately saved even outside the bound covenant.

The Jews today and in history are the chosen people to be God's witnesses.

Isaiah 43:10 (NIV2011)
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

This is the possibility. This can be the last resort how God can save humans legitimately. It's from my speculation though.



As a side note:
Witnesses are the middle men required by humans in majority to reach a truth. Under most circumstances, humans will have to rely on a small group of witnesses as middle men between a truth and the majority for them to reach a truth of any kind.

We all know for a fact that black holes exist. Yet 99.99% of us don't have the direct evidence. We rely on a small group of humans, our scientists in this case, as the middle men to reach such a truth.

In the case of salvation, a covenant won't work if God chooses to show up in front of everyone of us. It is because if He shows up to everyone, we no longer need faith to believe. Without faith to believe we can't be saved by the covenant we all bound to.

If however God doesn't show up to any humans at all, then no one knows who God is and what His salvation is.

So the only way which works is for God to choose His witnesses as the "middle men" and for all the rest to believe with faith. That's actually what our Bible is, a book of witnessing.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
I can list one of the possibilities here.

You need to first realize that Man once upon a time is considered completely not savable. From the time of Adam till Noah, Man is proven not savable by Law. Man should have been destroyed as a whole by water. It means that Satan had successfully screwed up God's plan of bringing humans to the future Heaven. God's plan of building such an eternity which we call Heaven was thus defeated.

However, God has Jesus Christ. God is so awesome and clever that through the blood of Jesus Christ He can now grant a series of covenants to bring salvation to these once so unsavable humans.

Now today's Jews all seem to be so unsavable. Is it possible for our awesome and clever God to save the unsavable again as He did before?

Jews are basically under the covenant granted to Moses, which came with a set of Law known as Mosaic Law. Jews need to observe this set of Law to a said standard such that they will be saved through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is deemed to be an "eternal" covenant (to the Jews). Each and every covenant has a scope of humans under its coverage. Under the Mosaic covenant (let's call it so), the scope of humans under its coverage is the Jews (and converts).

However the Bible says that the proclaiming of the (Mosaic) Law and Prophets is up to John the Baptist, since then we need to preach the New Gospel instead. The significance here is that humans after John the Baptist won't be saved by observing the Mosaic Law simply because they can't abide by this set of Law to its said standard (with Moses to be the accuser). It thus no longer accepts any converts ever since John the Baptist. All gentiles will have to rely on the New Covenant to be saved.

Today's Jews when measured by the same standard of Mosaic Law, they should be the unsaved. It is a similar status of humans in Noah's time. Now what are today's Jews?

The definition of a Jew (in terms of God's covenant, not man's dictionary) is,

- one who is by bloodline a Jew
- he's circumcised on the 8th day (today's practice is till several months after birth)
- he has a consent to abide by Mosaic Law when he becomes an adult (today only the Orthodox Jews choose to abide by Mosaic Law, from what I heard)
- he must not stand in the way of Christianity (by the definition of Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9)

These are the Jews. If any of the above 4 conditions are not fulfilled, then one is a gentile even though by bloodline he's a Jew.

These Jews are the Israel Paul was referring to in Romans 11. Now all left is how can they be saved if they are not savable in terms of how Mosaic Law should be observed?

David is a murderer, an adulterer in terms of Mosaic Law. How can he be saved? Similarly to Paul who is a persecutor of Christians. They are saved simply because they are chosen to be the witnesses of God. In nature Paul is a summoned prophet, though given the title Apostle. He's different from the twelve, he's summoned the same way as all other OT prophets. It shows that God's chosen witnesses can be legitimately saved even outside the bound covenant.

The Jews today and in history are the chosen people to be God's witnesses.

Isaiah 43:10 (NIV2011)
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

This is the possibility. This can be the last resort how God can save humans legitimately. It's from my speculation though.



As a side note:
Witnesses are the middle men required by humans in majority to reach a truth. Under most circumstances, humans will have to rely on a small group of witnesses as middle men between a truth and the majority for them to reach a truth of any kind.

We all know for a fact that black holes exist. Yet 99.99% of us don't have the direct evidence. We rely on a small group of humans, our scientists in this case, as the middle men to reach such a truth.

In the case of salvation, a covenant won't work if God chooses to show up in front of everyone of us. It is because if He shows up to everyone, we no longer need faith to believe. Without faith to believe we can't be saved by the covenant we all bound to.

If however God doesn't show up to any humans at all, then no one knows who God is and what His salvation is.

So the only way which works is for God to choose His witnesses as the "middle men" and for all the rest to believe with faith. That's actually what our Bible is, a book of witnessing.






Yes, that's what the mission is about. The destiny of Israel was to be a light to the nations through Christ, Acts 13:47. The thing about D'ism its inability to recognize self organizing verses like that and what happend just before they were given that makes them so definitive. Oh, and Acts also quotes less than favorite parts of the OT.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Matthew 10:23 (KJV)





Sorry STP, but it is just your stupidity. You have to be able to explain and talk.

They (the 70) did not get through all of Israel on their practice mission and the Son of Man (the Gospel) came. What's your problem? He sent them to rouse as much of Israel as he could and then on to the Gentiles, Lk 24. It would help if you did not have a list of 10 Bible verses that you hide behind.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Notice the continued evasion, one line change the subject, create a moving target, magic wand disappearing act from this biblical buffoon, dismissing/deleting "the plain meaning"(his clown words) of the book, and throwing out verse, randomly, and asking, in deceit, sophistry, "Well, how about...What about...Comment on....................................," w/o ever "connecting the dots," fraud, Reppy scammer?

"Judgment" in "the third heaven/heavenly places?" Wrong-no, a King, ruling a kingdom, on earth=land, baby.

"The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne." Psalms 132:11 KJV

" have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." Psalms 89:3-4 KJV

The Lord Jesus Christ's throne, the "throne of his glory", will be on earth, baby:


"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ..." Mt. 25: 31-34 KJV

"separate them"=judgment on earth.


"Judgment" in "the third heaven/heavenly places?" Wrong-no, A King, ruling a kingdom, on earth=land, baby

"then"=AFTER JUDGMENT of this "present evil world"(Gal. 1:4 KJV)

"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Mt. 20:21 KJV


"Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment." Isaiah 32:1 KJV

"And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city." Isaiah 1:26 KJV

"Judgment" in "the third heaven/heavenly places?" Wrong-no,a King, ruling a kingdom, on earth=land, baby. And just who are those princes ruling in judgment, these that will be in "The city of righteousness"?

On earth, baby:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mt. 19:28 KJV

"Judgment" in "the third heaven/heavenly places?" Wrong. On earth...land, baby.


"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Luke 22:29-30 KJV

"Judgment" in "the third heaven/heavenly places?" Wrong.On earth, baby...land.


The Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth to judge the nations and his enemies, and thereby establish his literal earthly kingdom of heaven upon the earth, establishing his reign on earth, on his throne in Jerusalem, and the 12 will, by his authority, also judge from their thrones.

"Judgment" in "the third heaven/heavenly places?" Wrong-no, a King, ruling a kingdom, on earth=land, baby.

David, as a type of Christ, confirms that the Lord Jesus Christ is in exile, and there is nothing in scripture to suggest that the provisions of the Davidic covenant are being fulfilled at this present time. The Lord Jesus Christ is not ruling on earth with a "rod of iron". David was appointed and anointed king long before his inauguration and enthronement-he was in exile. The Lord Jesus Christ will reign from his throne(not the Father's throne, which is in "the third heaven/heavenly places), ON EARTH, in Jerusalem.




Hundreds of verses indicate that most of the events of Revelation have not happened, that the JUDGMENT of this earth has not occurred, and it will only occur upon the Lord Jesus Christ's physical return to reign as the King, on earth, from Jerusalem:


Memorize:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ..." Mt. 25: 31-34 KJV

Yessiree, the Lord Jesus Christ came back with his holy angels, is sitting on his throne, he already gathered all the nations in JUDGMENT...............Right.



On earth...land, baby...

Replacement "Theology" thieves, robbers, charlatans...:


The Queen to Alice: "The word means what I say it means."






You're a Queen then.

Did you reference even one NT passage which is quoting the OT officially? No. You are your own cowboy.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Land/earth, baby:

According to The Holy Bible, the land in dispute, upon which the "Palestinians" wish to form a state, was granted to Israel, not us, the body of Christ. Because the LORD God has granted the land to Israel, the ownership is theirs, not ours. The Lord God's stated intention is that the regathered Israel would "dispossess" other peoples from the land designated for them. (Isaiah 54:2-3 KJV). Anyone even vaguely familiar with the covenants between the LORD God and Israel should understand that the land grants that God unilaterally conveyed upon Israel are an integral part of those covenants. This same land is being contended for by other parties who are in opposition to Gods declared intentions-the Arabs(Ishmael's family, Essau's family...............). Israel will be "...the chief of the nations..."(Jer. 31:7 KJV), on earth, on their land promised to them, not us, unconditionally by the LORD God. And replacement theology, like the actors of Islam, hold hands in this doctrine-they only disagree as to whose land it is.

The culmination of the LORD God's redemptive plan,which includes both both spiritual, and physical,despite protests to the contray, will only occur in conjunction with the spiritual restoration and physical rejuvenation of the believing remnant of the nation Israel. This is one of the primary themes of the prophets, stated over and over in the Holy Bible. Without an appreciation for the significance of the role Israel will play in the future, one cannot properly begin to grasp Gods prophetic program, as replacement theology demonstrates.

And what would the Jews being looking towards when the Lord Jesus Christ and John the Baptist came upon the scene? The physical restoration of their kingdom! And hence- the "gospel", the "good news" of the impending kingdom ON EARTH , "the gospel of the kingdom."

The Messiah, the Christ, had appeared, and all that had been written about Him would certainly be fulfilled, and all the covenants the LORD God made with the Jews, including the land covenant, "the promises made unto the fathers"(Romans 15:8 KJV), not the body of Christ, will be fulfilled. And those that shake their fist at the LORD God, will have their traps shot, eventually, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"(Romans 11:29 KJV).The Holy Bible is replete with many depictions of the LORD Gods rule over all the world from Jerusalem, with the Jews as "the chief of the nations"(Jer. 31:7 KJV), a rule of justice and goodness and peace, were at the forefront of Jewish thought when the Lord Jesus Christ appeared. When the heralds of the "good news", which is "the gospel of the kingdom"(not the gospel of Christ, as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV)proclaimed that the kingdom was at hand, that could only mean one thing: the King was here, the Lord Jesus Christ,and it was time for Israel to assume her role as the "chief of the nations", on earth, "a kingdom of priests,"on a land promised to her, not the body of Christ, with the King of Israel ruling over her and the world, nations.

David was king of Judah and over all of Israel. Mary was promised that Jesus would "reign over the house of Jacob [Israel] for ever...on the throne of his father David," per Luke 1:32-33 KJV.

Davids throne was not in "the third heaven/heavenly places," but in Jerusalem. David never ruled from "way up there yonder," despite you "Jethro's/Jethrine's" grumblings, nor will the Lord Jesus Christ rule over Israel restored to her land from heaven, but from earth.


As we know, all was not immediately fulfilled in His first appearance. However, all of these prophecies will be fulfilled in His second appearance, "the second time," per Hebrews 9:28 KJV,just as David appeared unto his brethren "the second time," per Acts 7:13 KJV/Genesis), and all covenants will be fulfilled shortly thereafter. The Lord Jesus Christs' "gang" understood this, asking Him just before He departed from them, "Lord, wilt at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"(Acts 1:6 KJV) These "unlearned and ignorant men"(Acts 4:13 KJV)men understood that the fulfillment of the kingdom, and the restoration of the believing remnant of the nation Israel to the place of world preeminence, are intimately connected events, and yet many self-acclaimed "religious experts", such as those Replacement "Theology" scammers/thieves/robbers, do not, as intellectual manure is shoveled out at many seminaries,or, more aptly "cemetaries." Their fallacious arguments are refuted based on a literal reading of the Scriptures. But they continue their over-"spiritualization" of "the volume of the book," and thus, "the church," allegedly inherits the land.

Again:David was king of Judah and over all of Israel. Mary was promised that the Lord Jesus Christ would "reign over the house of Jacob for ever..."on "...the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:32-33 KJV). Davids throne was not in "the third heaven/heavenly places," but in Jerusalem. David never ruled from "the third heaven/heavenly places," nor will the Lord Jesus Christ rule over Israel restored to her land from "the third heaven/heavenly places," but from earth. The body of Christ will reign in the heavenlies, and has NO LAND INHERITANCE.

A rule of justice and goodness and peace on earth today,a time "...as the days of heaven upon the earth...(Deut. 11:21 KJV)? Right. Keep on spinning, like a top, you thieves/robbers/charlatans...


The believing remnant...

Romans 9 KJV
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;






The LORD God's plan....Install His King, on earth....

Psalms 2
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

And He will be glorified, honored, ALONE, as KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, on earth, FOR WHAT HE DID 2000+ years ago, ALONE, faithfully honoring God the Father, trusting His promises to Him,.............



.....and those who do not honor Him, on earth, will face judgment, on earth.....Land, baby...


Zechariah 14 KJV

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited........


16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Isaiah 2:3 KJV

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.


Micah 4:2 KJV

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

...and He will also, unlike man, be faithful, to the believing remnant of the nation Israel....



....all to the glory of God....



Isaiah 46:13 KJV

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.


Memorize that.




Right and who is Israel? It's the believers. Heb 11-13 says it always was; not those who fall away to destruction.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
A bit more background:


http://www.christchurch-virginiawater.co.uk/articles/irving1.html

"In 1826 Irving was introduced to the views of Manuel Lacunza a Spanish Jesuit who wrote a book under the pseudonym of Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, allegedly a converted Jew, entitled, 'The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty'. Lacunza interpreted all but the first three chapters of the Book of Revelation as describing apocalyptic events about to happen.

Irving was so excited by Lacunza's speculations, he mastered Spanish in order to translate and publish the work in English.7 Irving added a 203 page preface to the translation in which he presented with great conviction his own unique prophetic speculations about the end of the world, predicting the apostasy of Christendom, the subsequent restoration of the Jews and finally the imminent return of Christ.
When the Lord shall have finished the taking of witness against the Gentiles... he will begin to prepare another ark of testimony... and to that end will turn his Holy Spirit unto his ancient people, the Jews, and bring them unto those days of refreshing... This outpouring of the Spirit is known in Scripture by 'the latter rain'.8

Darby began publishing his prophetic speculations in 1831. Coincidentally both he and Edward Irving began to postulate two stages to Christ's imminent return about the same time. First, there would be an invisible 'appearing' when Christians would meet Christ in the air and be removed from the earth, a process which came to be known as 'the rapture of the saints'."

"There is some speculation that this novel doctrine emerged as a result of the Powerscourt prophetic conference held near Dublin in 1831. 'Darby's prominence at the Powerscourt meetings has led to the supposition that he was responsible for it...'17 While dispensationalists have been most anxious to perpetuate this belief to ensure a measure of orthodoxy, there is much evidence to the contrary.18 Several have attributed the notion of a secret, pretribulational Rapture to Edward Irving.19""

As late as 1976 Walvoord was still anxious to distance the origin of the doctrine of the Rapture from Irving.

The often-repeated charge that Darby secured his pretribulationism from Edward Irving has never been actually documented. One can hardly account for the wide acceptance of pretribulationism by Plymouth Brethren, who are devoted students of the bible, to the offering of this view by a person who had no reputation for orthodoxy.24

Canfield notes that Walvoord's position contradicts several British historians who were closer to the issue." Canfield wrote a book on C.I. Scofield.

Neatby, writing in 1901, Howard Rowden in 1967, F. Roy Coad in 1968 and Iain Murray in 1971, all find direct and reasonable links between the ideas of irving and the role of J. N. Darby. The link is so evident that a denial, using semantics on Walvoord's part, does not 'wash'.25
"Edward Irving's premature death in 1834 while on a preaching tour of Scotland left the reins of the Catholic Apostolic Church in Henry Drummond's hands, the hope of the restoration of Israel to men like Lewis Way and Hugh McNeile and the cause of premillennialism to be shaped and forged by John Nelson Darby's nascent dispensationalism alone."

Dave MacPherson, The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin (Kansas City, Heart of America Bible Society, 1973)

http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/history-edward-irving.html

"Manuel Lacunza a.k.a. Emmanuel de Lacunza a.k.a. “Ben Ezra” (1731 – 1801) was a Roman Catholic Jesuit Priest from Chile whose book was published in Spain in 1812. He is regarded as one of the most influential writers to suggest that the church needed to review her position and look again at what the Word of God has to say on the subject. In his book he writes about the following:
§ He advises going back to the literal truth of Scripture

§ He asserts the restoration of the Jews in the end-times

§ The two-fold coming of the Lord
§ The millennial reign

§ The setting up of the temple sacrifice once again

§ The restoration of the earth following the yet future and final defeat of satan.

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

"Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal
interpretation of Old Testament
prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the “year-day
theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a
personal Antichrist and future
tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not
espouse a pretribulation rapture."

"Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chili in 1731, and
sent to Spain at the young age of 15...In 1790, he wrote a book on
prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and
Majesty
, which was published in
Spain in 1812....
Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal
interpretation of Old Testament
prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the “year-day
theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a
personal Antichrist and future
tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not
espouse a pretribulation rapture.
Edward Irving...Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became
aware of Fr.Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it, he took it upon himself to
translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his
own. Irving's English translation was published in
1827. Irving's
developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned
from his
Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all
the key elements of
dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation
beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational
ideas."

The question is why most dispensationalists do not mention that Edward Irving appears to be as important or more important than John Darby for the creation of dispensationalism?

Is it only because Irving got his ideas from Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit? And some have said that Lacunza was really trying to influence the Protestants away from seeing the Pope as the Anti-Christ and to get them into a futurist position.
 

Danoh

New member
Nothing more than your parroting the intentional mis-read into a thing of all that, by the likes of McPherson.

The fact of the matter is that Lacunza was another Martin Luther.

He wrote his book while in exile, and later had to flee for his life; his book listed on the RCC's list of banned books; their authors subject to death for heresy.

You've sunk to a real low, IP.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I think it helps if we have gone around enough corners on these things.

I had a friend once who stopped believing that believers were Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29) or that Christ's resurrection was the completion of things for Israel (Acts 13) or that Heb 11-13 was believers in Christ and showed no further activity about Israel.

"You never know. Something might happen in Israel."

Me: "Something? What were you expecting?"

"Some of those events people talk about."

Me: "What we should be looking for is a person like Paul who sounds like Paul who is opposed by Judaism like Paul. That would be great if that happened in Israel, because then some more true evangelists might be launched."

"OK."

Are we Christians or are we extensions of Judaism. Hmmm, I think we can find out in Hebrews.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I think it helps if we have gone around enough corners on these things.

I had a friend once who stopped believing that believers were Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29) or that Christ's resurrection was the completion of things for Israel (Acts 13) or that Heb 11-13 was believers in Christ and showed no further activity about Israel.

"You never know. Something might happen in Israel."

Me: "Something? What were you expecting?"

"Some of those events people talk about."

Me: "What we should be looking for is a person like Paul who sounds like Paul who is opposed by Judaism like Paul. That would be great if that happened in Israel, because then some more true evangelists might be launched."

"OK."

Are we Christians or are we extensions of Judaism. Hmmm, I think we can find out in Hebrews.
Your anti-Biblical belief system is fascinating.
 
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