SaulToPaul 2
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You get Holford, but you neither get MAD, nor the good book.
saint john w the great: "So there."
ECT Rom 3:3 and 9:6 on God's constancy
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You get Holford, but you neither get MAD, nor the good book.
saint john w the great: "So there."
Never mind some 30 people or so mentioned by Paul in Romans 16 that he apparantly knows; some of whom he had clearly dealt with face to face before he wrote Romans.
The various assemblies at Rome were not the result of some earlier Circumcision outreach from Acts 2's Pentecost after they returned home - when they finally did return home...
Look; all Romans is, is "a Bible Conference" in long...written...form.
And any really solid actually "Bible Based" conference will go over much of what Paul goes over in Romans.
And it will do so "to the choir" - to people often already somewhat familiar with the material.
All Romans is, is this...in long...written...form...
All it is is Paul's recurrent, or repeated pattern or practice, of what he reminds the following assembly leaders in the following...but in...long...written form...
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 20:19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Thus, why Romans also ends on that same note...
Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
It does not appear that Paul established any of the various assemblies at Rome.
At the same time; it is clear in Romans 16 that he personally knew some of their leaders.
It is ridiculous, for example, to conclude that two of them - these two...
Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them. 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Acts 18:18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow. 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.
Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
...who not only had been with Paul all that time, but did what they did with Apollos - brought him up to speed on "the way of God more perfectly," did not do likewise with their own assembly after they returned to Rome...before Paul even wrote...Romans.
Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ?
How did that come about? During, or, as a result of, Paul's ministry at Achaia?
Acts 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat, 18:13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
Perhaps due to others at Achaia?
18:27 And when he [Apollos, v. 24] was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
We read in...
Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
But clearly, Paul already has a huge Gentile ministry by then - in the regions of Syria and Cilicia (location of Tarsus)...
Acts 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
Acts 15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
Further, what did Paul later remind Timothy to continue to practice?
To continue to preach the same things "to the choir," as it were....
2 Timothy 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
THAT is Paul's recurrent pattern.
Over and over, he repeats this need to repeatedly repeat the same things "to the choir," as it were.
All Romans is, is Paul's recurrent practice of that "to the choir" at Rome, in long...written... form.
Those various assemblies at Rome were not founded by those Israelites from Rome who were in attendence at Jerusalem during Acts 2's Pentecost.
Not only did Gentile outreach begin only after Paul himself was saved in spiritual Uncircumcision, but there was much confusion about the Gentiles for sometime. And communication was then such that it wasn't like they could just get on their smartphones, call back home and say "guess what, oh, and here's an instagram..."
Interplanner
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Problems reaching out to gentiles yes, but no mistake that it was happening, even by accident. Sometimes by supernatural events like Phillip.
Nothing you've said mitigates that the message itself was for the whole world;
that the offer of a theocratic kingdom is a phantom doctrine;
that the early OT was preached for its gentile appeal;
that the reflection of Peter in Acts 15 was that God raised him to reach the nations.
The forgiveness of sins happens to be God's message for the whole world. Had 1st century Israel become missionaries of it like the string of questions in mid Rom 10 asks, they might not have inflamed Rome.
Interplanner
Well-known member
In the history of the Roman Christians, the popped up on their own without Paul's help. This began as far back as the week after Pentecost. He never went there, and didn't want to go there, because that would be going into someone else's field of work, and his motto was Is 52:15. (This is classic use of the OT; it was about the mission of the Gospel to the nations).
The edict of Cladius removed Jews from Rome for a while (Acts 18:2), and the groups in Rome still grew. There were issues about ceremonial and dietary parts of the law when the Jews came back, THAT THE JEWS HAD. The assumption is that what the gentile believers were doing was fine, but the Jewish Christians needed to accept it. The weaker brother of Rom 14-15 is the returning Jewish believer.
The conception of MAD is that the Jewish practice was the norm and the gentiles had to follow it.
The edict of Cladius removed Jews from Rome for a while (Acts 18:2), and the groups in Rome still grew. There were issues about ceremonial and dietary parts of the law when the Jews came back, THAT THE JEWS HAD. The assumption is that what the gentile believers were doing was fine, but the Jewish Christians needed to accept it. The weaker brother of Rom 14-15 is the returning Jewish believer.
The conception of MAD is that the Jewish practice was the norm and the gentiles had to follow it.
SaulToPaul 2
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:chuckle:
Interplanner
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Yes, you guys say this all the time about Acts 15 and 16, and 19 and the ceremony that got Paul access in to the temple in late Acts.
Fact of the matter regarding your above slander of a writer of Scripture; you lying, incompetent windbag, is...
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. 15:22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
Interplanner
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SaulToPaul 2
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What does "land wherein your fathers dwelt" in Ezekiel 37 mean and where is it?
themuzicman
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Romans 11:25-27 doesn't say that the rest of the Jews will be saved. All it says is "in this way" Israel will be saved. In what way? Paul has been describing the fulfillment of the Word of God (Romans 9:6) in terms of remnant throughout chs. 9-11. And this is the way in which all Israel will be saved.
Interplanner
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Yes, I believe he is momentarily referring to the ethne Israel there because he has 3 illustrations in the opening of ch 11. There always will just be a remnant, saved. All those who have faith are part of it, of "us" as in 9:24. So all of those, all down through time, are saved.
And remember what 'saved' means in Rom 9-11. It has nothing to do with a reblossomed Israel in its land, not if the meaning of Isaiah is preserved and 'saved' all through 9-11. Nothing.