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Ps82

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@LogicStandsBeforeGod says:



Jesus did not raise another man from the dead until after He had been given authority to do so.

He did so on His own authority.

The Apostles, for comparison, did so on HIS authority.



It's only nonsensical if He wasn't God to begin with. He became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.



It's not nonsensical.

It's not a sham.



No.

I agree with 1.
I disagree with 2.
Regarding 3.: Yes, Jesus raised a man from the dead. And then He raised Himself after being in the grave for three days and three nights.
I agree that God is not the author of confusion. So either I'm not being clear enough, or you're not understanding what I'm saying.
I disagree with 5. God tells us He sent His only begotten Son to die, and then He rose from the dead on the third day. The evidence supports that claim. The evidence in the Bible.
First, I get my evidence from the Bible which has been substantiated by the truth that God has given me personal reasons for believing he is real, alive, knows what is going on in my life and cares. I cannot deny that scripture is real for it is a faith thing. I co not doubt there is a God who is capable of knowing all things. Surely a God who inspired prophets to write scripture in the first place would be capable of protecting truth no matter the language translation - unless the Devil has inspired lies to deceive. Christians must question things and get help from the living God the Spirit in us.

I can think of three huge topics right off the top of my head which are important to understanding what Jesus, as the Son of God / son of man accomplished.
Topics:
1. What precisely is death?
2. Did God The Spirit [The WORD] die when Jesus as a mortal human [son of man] died upon the cross?
3. Where exactly did Jesus go while his body lay in the tomb for three days and what did he do?
 

JudgeRightly

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First, I get my evidence from the Bible which has been substantiated by the truth that God has given me personal reasons for believing he is real, alive, knows what is going on in my life and cares. I cannot deny that scripture is real for it is a faith thing. I co not doubt there is a God who is capable of knowing all things. Surely a God who inspired prophets to write scripture in the first place would be capable of protecting truth no matter the language translation - unless the Devil has inspired lies to deceive. Christians must question things and get help from the living God the Spirit in us.

I can think of three huge topics right off the top of my head which are important to understanding what Jesus, as the Son of God / son of man accomplished.
Topics:

1. What precisely is death?

Answer: Separation. Physical death is the separation of body from soul. Spiritual death is the separation of creation from Creator.

2. Did God The Spirit [The WORD] die when Jesus as a mortal human [son of man] died upon the cross?

Answer: God the Son is the One who died on the cross. The Holy Spirit did not die. The Father did not die.

3. Where exactly did Jesus go while his body lay in the tomb for three days and what did he do?

Answer: He preached in Paradise, to the righteous undead, then led captivity captive, holding the keys to death when He ascended.
 

Ps82

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Answer: Separation. Physical death is the separation of body from soul. Spiritual death is the separation of creation from Creator.



Answer: God the Son is the One who died on the cross. The Holy Spirit did not die. The Father did not die.



Answer: He preached in Paradise, to the righteous undead, then led captivity captive, holding the keys to death when He ascended.
Hello JudgeRightly, Thank you for your response.

1. Death: I agree with your statement. but will add: Death of the body and the spirit do not happen instantaneously. There are stages.

a.) The first death for mankind is a physical death, but the spiritual death comes later.

b.) The spirits of the saved and unsaved humans go to separate places and live either in bliss or torment.

c.) Yet there is a second death for humanity. Now, I'm curious if you and I will agree on this part. I happen to ponder this possibility: The second death, the Lake of Fire, was prepared for angels not humanity... For angels the second death means an eternal suffering for they were created to be eternal beings. BUT, humanity was not created as eternal beings. Their souls were established but given a body formed of the elements of their environment. For them I think the death you describe was always a potential; yet, for some reason God choose to give them a second chance - salvation.

d.) So, what entails the second death for humanity who presently lives either in paradise or hell? I ponder that it is the point where the life of their identity returns to from where it came. It came for out of God as a gift and goes back into the essence of God from where it came. The death of man's body and soul does not rob God of anything ... He is eternal and all in all. Always whole whether he has allocated of his essence in order to create things and beings or whether he takes it all back. The Lake of Fire is the final and total separation from God for lost souls as having been created individuals.



Interesting though how Jesus understood something which would be a mystery to us. "He said let the dead bury their dead." I think he understood that those particular family members were destined to some day experience exactly what you described above - Physical death is the separation of body from soul. Spiritual death is the separation of creation from Creator.]

2.)
Regarding your statement above: God the Son is the One who died on the cross. The Holy Spirit did not die. The Father did not die. I agree with this caveat - Jesus died the physical death. Jesus was God spiritually and was the LORD in appearance of flesh. God experienced the pain and suffering of physical death through the body of Jesus ...

3.) ... but as the incarnate Jesus, our God still existed as the promised Savior and as you stated - went elsewhere to preach to others after his physical death.

The entity we know as the individual called The WORD of God who was God, the Promised ONE, the LIGHT of the World, Emmanuel, the Savior will not experience the Second Death of eternal [total never ending] separation from God as an individual.

Praise our wise and merciful Creator for giving mankind our way for salvation. Who is MAN that thou art mindful of him? HE is God's perfect creation for bringing forth a righteous family unto HIM. Amen
 

Nick M

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A person on youtube gave a presentation on logic and reason explaining the concept of Logos. Then he argued against it in the comments. Let me know when you figure people out. And for fun since it came up in another thread where I said I used google to translate I found this one today.


I went straight for "logos", "logic and reason", and "word".

And Logos does not mean word or words or vocabulary. It is wrong, just like saying Paul is the chief or worst, when he said he is the first. I hate to say it, but many translations are wrong about important things. I'm glad I saved all of Bob Hill's writings from his old website.
 
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Clete

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A person on youtube gave a presentation on logic and reason explaining the concept of Logos. Then he argued against it in the comments. Let me know when you figure people out. And for fun since it came up in another thread where I said I used google to translate I found this one today.


I went straight for "logos", "logic and reason", and "word".

And Logos does not mean word or words or vocabulary. It is wrong, just like saying Paul is the chief or worst, when he said he is the first. I hate to say it, but many translations are wrong about important things. I'm glad I saved all of Bob Hill's writings from his old website.
I'd love to get a copy of those writings!
 

Ps82

Well-known member
Where I come from when I consider God and the WORD.
First, God is just omni-everything but I will focus on the fact that scripture says God is LIFE; therefore, I conclude that everything God is - all his attributes, power, character, intellect and etc. are ALIVE.

When I consider him in totality there is not one bit of his essence that is more alive than any other. His power lives, his wisdom lives, his strength lives, his voice lives ... but I do think he can allocate measures of his essence to created things ... created things never equal God nor does God loose any of himself as he shares for all is made by him, for him, in him, and consist of him.

Now, considering the VOICE of God which came walking in the Garden to visit Adam and Woman: I believe he was the living voice of God.

What is a voice? It is an audible sound made when intellect produces it; so, regarding the living voice of God, it is coherent audible living speech. Another way to talk about the voice from God is to say - The WORD came unto beings having the ability to hear it. Such came unto Adam and the prophets of old.

John in the Book of John 1 explained pretty well how that worked. The WORD was with God and simultaneously was God's audible voice. Jesus, being God and the voice of God, once said something like this: I could make these rocks cry out and worship me if the people didn't. God has ways to send his voice/Word unto people whenever however his desires. Vibrations of mountains and rocks if necessary.

Jesus Christ came speaking only God's words ... [John 8:25-29; John 12:49-50] doing only what the Father God wanted him to do; therefore, Jesus was The living WORD of God speaking through a physical mouth unto mankind with ears. [John 5:19,26-28]

Once The WORD/Jesus spoke to a group of religious leaders scolding them about their ignorance and how they would not know The Father if they saw him. Saying, "You have never heard the Father's voice nor seen his visible shape. [5:37]

He also mentioned, even though these experts had the scriptures in which they trusted for their salvation from God, they did not have The truth of God's WORD abiding within them/their understanding. [John 5:37-39] He said, If you did, then you would come to me ... that ye might have life.

Jesus said another time: I Am [being The WORD of God] the TRUTH, The WAY and The LIFE. [John 8:19] IOW ... if these men had recognized him as the promised Son ... then that would have proved they had previously seen the Father ... for I think they looked and sounded alike. That's another subject, but Jesus did say another time: When you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN The Father."

Lastly, Jesus proclaimed to be the WORD of God who spoke with authority. [John 5:26-27] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son [The Word] to have life in himself; ...and authority to judge ...

Summing up: The WORD was with God and is God. The LIVING WORD came as the fleshly Messiah on a mission to speak the TRUTH about the WAY to the Kingdom ... God gave The WORD a measure of LIFE in his body ... and additional life which would be the gift of Spiritual LIFE he could share for saving human souls.

To me, The WORD of God is not just words written on a page ... HE is the walking talking living God come in flesh to share truth and provide salvation.

I wrote this quickly today ... After being at a hospital emergency room with my 101 year old mother in law last night ... and today up and down doing needed tasks ... plus soon will pick up grand kids from bus ... Just haven't the time to carefully proof read. Sorry.
 

Clete

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Where I come from when I consider God and the WORD.
First, God is just omni-everything
Omni-evil
Omni-sinful
Omni-mean spirited
Omni-stupid
Omni-rediculous

Oh wait! That's you! My mistake!
but I will focus on the fact that scripture says God is LIFE; therefore, I conclude that everything God is - all his attributes, power, character, intellect and etc. are ALIVE.
Meaningless

When I consider him in totality
Can't be done.

there is not one bit of his essence that is more alive than any other.
Meaningless.

His power lives, his wisdom lives, his strength lives, his voice lives ...
All meaningless.

but I do think he can allocate measures of his essence to created things ... created things never equal God nor does God loose any of himself as he shares for all is made by him, for him, in him, and consist of him.
Again, all meaningless double talk. You don't even know what you're saying and couldn't explain it if your life depended on it.

Now, considering the VOICE of God which came walking in the Garden to visit Adam and Woman: I believe he was the living voice of God
Stupidity. It was just God.

What is a voice? It is an audible sound made when intellect produces it;
My dog has a voice. Catfish have a voice.

so, regarding the living voice of God, it is coherent audible living speech.
Meaningless.

Another way to talk about the voice from God is to say - The WORD came unto beings having the ability to hear it. Such came unto Adam and the prophets of old.
There was no disembodied "voice"! It was God Himself!

John in the Book of John 1 explained pretty well how that worked. The WORD was with God and simultaneously was God's audible voice.
There isn't more than one God!

Jesus, being God and the voice of God, once said something like this:
Jesus is not the voice of God, He is GOD - period.

I could make these rocks cry out and worship me if the people didn't.
That isn't what He said.

God has ways to send his voice/Word unto people whenever however his desires. Vibrations of mountains and rocks if necessary.
It was a figure of speech! The point was that there wasn't ever any way that there wasn't going to be someone to praise Him. He wasn't suggesting that the inanimate rocks would actually spout mouths with which to utter praise. Is it that just pretty much every single thing you think of is mystical or what?

Jesus Christ came speaking only God's words ... [John 8:25-29; John 12:49-50] doing only what the Father God wanted him to do; therefore, Jesus was The living WORD of God speaking through a physical mouth unto mankind with ears. [John 5:19,26-28]
That's because He is God! Any words He happened to say, were God's words by definition.

Once The WORD/Jesus spoke to a group of religious leaders scolding them about their ignorance and how they would not know The Father if they saw him. Saying, "You have never heard the Father's voice nor seen his visible shape. [5:37]
Contradict yourself much?

I know - you don't see how. Live with it.

He also mentioned, even though these experts had the scriptures in which they trusted for their salvation from God, they did not have The truth of God's WORD abiding within them/their understanding. [John 5:37-39] He said, If you did, then you would come to me ... that ye might have life.
This cannot be true if the rest of what you've said in this post is true!

I mean I thought God was "omni-everything" and "living everything", etc. How does that work if these men can spend their whole lives studying God's words and "even though these experts had the scriptures in which they trusted for their salvation from God, they did not have The truth of God's WORD abiding within them"?

Flat out, both cannot be true. You really should stop making up your doctrine off the top of your head, which it's easy to tell is what you're doing here.

Jesus said another time: I Am [being The WORD of God] the TRUTH, The WAY and The LIFE. [John 8:19] IOW ... if these men had recognized him as the promised Son ... then that would have proved they had previously seen the Father ... for I think they looked and sounded alike. That's another subject, but Jesus did say another time: When you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN The Father."
There is but one SINGULAR God! Jesus is Him!

Lastly, Jesus proclaimed to be the WORD of God who spoke with authority. [John 5:26-27] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son [The Word] to have life in himself; ...and authority to judge ...
This is nothing at all other than Jesus directly claiming to be THE God!

Summing up: The WORD was with God and is God. The LIVING WORD came as the fleshly Messiah on a mission to speak the TRUTH about the WAY to the Kingdom ... God gave The WORD a measure of LIFE in his body ... and additional life which would be the gift of Spiritual LIFE he could share for saving human souls.
This is convoluted and meaningless in the way you are expressing it here.

The Creator God Himself BECAME flesh and dwelt among us. There are not multiple God's. The Word (Logos) IS GOD Himself!

To me, The WORD of God is not just words written on a page ... HE is the walking talking living God come in flesh to share truth and provide salvation.
Then why speak of "the voice" as if it is distinct from Himself? Why speak of Jesus as if He is not ONE with the Father?

I wrote this quickly today ... After being at a hospital emergency room with my 101 year old mother in law last night ... and today up and down doing needed tasks ... plus soon will pick up grand kids from bus ... Just haven't the time to carefully proof read. Sorry.
I for one don't pay any attention to typos, not that I even noticed any. What I do notice is when someone is just popping stuff off the top of their head without given any effort to think it through and ponder the implications of what they are saying.

At the end of the day, what you’ve offered is grounded in neither clear reasoning nor Scripture, and it doesn’t even serve any real purpose! It’s a jumble of mystical-sounding phrases that neither inform nor transform. There’s no clarity, no consistency, and frankly, no utility. Truth matters, not because it sounds spiritual, but because it actually helps us know God as He is, not as we imagine Him to be, and that requires more than platitudes and feeling our way through the formulation of our doctrine. It requires thought - careful, deliberate, dispassionate thought! Or, or put in a single Greek word, it requires "Logos"!
 

Nick M

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I have 37 HTML pages saved off line. I don't think it can be posted here like this, but it can be arranged.

When is the second coming? In about AD 50, Paul implied that he thought he would be alive when the rapture took place. 1 Th 4:15 “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.” Then, in approximately 57 AD, the Apostle Paul thought it was soon. 1 Co 7:29 “But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none.” About the same time, James thought it was soon. Jam 5:8 “You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” The Apostle John thought it was the last hour in about AD 70. 1 Jo 2:18 “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.” When he wrote Revelation, he quoted Christ, Rev 22:7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

The prophet, Montanus, in the 2nd century, predicted the soon bodily return of Christ. Novatian, in the 3rd century, expected the second coming of the Lord Jesus. The sack of Rome in the 5th century by the Vandals was supposed to bring the end. Pope Gregory, in the sixth century, told the Christian world that “of all the signs [describing] . . . the end of the world[,] some . . .[are] already accomplished. . . . we do not behold signs in the sun and moon and stars but . . . these are not far off . . .” On the last day of 999, the old basilica of St. Peter’s at Rome was thronged with a mass of weeping and trembling worshipers awaiting the end of the world. There were repeated warnings in the dark ages.

Martin Luther wrote in January of 1532, “The last day is at hand. My calendar has run out.” Many Adventists predicted the second coming in the 1840’s. Dahl, in The Midnight Cry, predicted this era would end by 1980. Many predicted the rapture would take place in 1988 because it was 40 years after the reestablishment of Israel as a nation in 1948. Edgar Whisenant gave 88 reasons why in it would be in 1988. When it didn’t happen, he then said it would take place in 1989. At one time I thought we could know the year of the rapture by figuring out the beginning of the 1000 years and subtract 7 years. But who can be sure when the millennium will begin?

A Korean group placed a large newspaper ad in many papers predicting the rapture would take place October 28, 1992. Grant Jeffrey says it will be 2000. What do you think?

The next thing that will happen is the rapture. 2 The 2:1-4 “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.”

That will start a sequence of many prophetic events which are displayed in the following chart:
Eschatology – from Now to Eternity


Grace


The rapture ends this dispensation
2 Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
1 Co 15:51,52
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorrupt-ible, and we shall be changed.
Tribulation


The beginning of the Lord’s Day​

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 9:27a And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one heptad; and at the midpoint of the heptad he will stop sacrifice and grain offering.
Dan 12:11 And
from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Great & Awesome Day of the Lord

After the tribulation​


Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Mat 24:29,30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Judgment


Sheep and goat nations judged.​

Mat 25:31,32 When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
1,000 year reign


Tribulation martyrs reign with Christ​

Rev 20:4,6 Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Satan Loosed
After 1,000 years

Gog and Magog​


Rev 20:7-9 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Great White Throne

The rest of the dead are judged.​

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it . . . 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 . . . And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
New Heaven and Earth

Israel’s kingdom is established​

Rev 21:1,3,27; 22:5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. . . . 3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. . . . 27 only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. 22:5 And they shall reign forever and ever.











Robert T. Hill 1998​
Then the tribulation. The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in this dispensation is prophesied. Eph 3:8,9 “To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.” That’s what we call the nature of the mystery. Israel was identified as the people of the tribulation by Daniel (Dan 9:24; 10:14; 12:1). Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned Daniel’s abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27; 11:31) in the tribulation’s setting (Mat 24:15-21).

The purpose of the tribulation is to purify Israel for her kingdom reign (Dan 9:24; Zec 13:9). In fact, in Jer 30:7, the tribulation is specifically called a time of tribulation for Jacob. Therefore, a tribulation which is specifically designated for Israel is irrelevant to the church which is His body.

Since the nature of the mystery shows us that the body of Christ is never referred to in biblical prophecy prior to Paul’s conversion, we can make some conclusions about when it occurs. They are:

A. Prophecy about the people in the tribulation would not refer to the body of Christ.

B. Prophecy about the day of the Lord would not apply to the body of Christ.

C. Prophecy about the people under the wrath of God would not apply to the body of Christ.

Therefore, the rapture, since it only applies to the body of Christ, must take place prior to the prophetic program which follows it for the next 1,007 years. Then the great and awesome day of the Lord is next. This is what is normally called the second coming. Then the judgment of the nations takes place. Then the millennial reign of Christ begins. Then Satan is loosed. Then the great white throne judgment takes place. Then the new heavens and earth are established. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. Come, Lord Jesus.​

That actually formatted correctly. Call me surprised.
 

Clete

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I have 37 HTML pages saved off line. I don't think it can be posted here like this, but it can be arranged.



That actually formatted correctly. Call me surprised.
Completely brilliant!

How amazing it is to read something based on real wisdom, gained through long devotion, diligent study and sound reason.

You should start a thread a couple of times a week with one of his writings.
 

Nick M

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You should start a thread a couple of times a week with one of his writings.
I thought about something like that last night. I am not sure what is permitted and I don't even mean TOL. I read here when he passed he has a son outside the faith who took it down right away. Nothing like shaking your fist at God, as Delmar rightly described some people. But he did author it. Maybe if it is just in quotes like that it is a non-issue.
 

JudgeRightly

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Having a discussion on Open Theism in a discord server I'm in. This is nearing the end of the conversation, or at least, that's what it feels like.

Bugs said:
Honestly, after conversing with my pastor, and watching quite large number of videos on everything ranging from Calvinism to Arminianism, to Open-theism, and reading a boatload of Scripture, I typed out a huge (like 4 discord limits) response, but decided that a shorter answer will suffice for this.

I appreciate your succinctness.

God MUST know the future, simply because prophecy exists, and is written in Scriptures, that have not yet been fulfilled.

Just for that reason alone?

If so, then if all I do is show you that prophecy is not future settled history revealed, would you admit that there is no need for God to know the future?

And which is necessary, prophecy or love?

No act of man, can change the Scriptural integrity.

This sounds like begging the question.

You're assuming that the future was settled in order to prove that the future is settled.

Look, I agree, there are some things that are predetermined to happen.

But it's not because the future is known. It's because God intends to bring those things about.

God isn't going to break His promises to Israel or to Abraham. Thus, anything that is based on those promises, will happen.

You wanna know how I know He isn't going to break His promises?

Because God demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.

God doesn't change things on a whim. He is the exact opposite of arbitrary!

If the end times were to be changed, and the prophecy became no longer relevant, this would render God a liar, Scripture imperfect, and thus unreliable, and Christianity a false religion.

Scripture itself shows this to be wrong.

God told Jonah to tell Nineveh that "in forty days, Nineveh will be destroyed."

Was God a liar when it didn't happen?

NO!!!!

Of course He didn't become a liar when He did not destroy Nineveh!

The same is true with the End Times.

If God changes His mind on the end of the world, but still gives Israel the Kingdom He promised, because they returned to Him, and spares the rest of the world, would He not be completely within His authority to do so?!

Why would that make Him a liar?

Again, I bring up the analogy of a father who promises to take the entire family to 6-Flags (or wherever) if his son gets good grades in school, but when his son gets good grades, and they're on the way there, the boy disrespects his mother. If the father then says, "I'm turning the car around, because you did not honor your mother," does that make him a liar, since they will no longer be going to 6-Flags? NO, it makes him a good father!

If God tells Israel, "I'm going to take you into a land flowing with milk and honey, and I'll even fight your battles for you, in order to drive out the people that live there already," but just before they enter the Promised Land, they send out scouts, where 10 of them say "there's giants in the land, we can't defeat them!" but two say "let's trust God!", and they stop trusting God because of the 10, is God justified and right for leading them around in circles for 40 years until everyone above a certain age dies, and NOT leading them into the promised land? OF COURSE HE IS!

Does that make Him a liar?! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT DOES NOT!

God can change and adapt His plans to the belligerence of men. He's powerful enough to do that.

Secondly, God absolutely interferes with OUR understanding of free-will (influenced by sin nature and the Holy Spirit, fighting to be the foremost desire upon which we will act).

What is this "our understanding of free will"?

If it's not free, it's not a will.

A will is the ability to choose otherwise.

If you do not have the ability to choose otherwise, you do not have a will.

Abraham had the ability to choose otherwise, when presented with the command to kill his son Isaac on Mt Moriah. He chose to reach out for the knife, and at that moment, God stopped him and said "NOW I know that you fear Me"!

Examples like the perfect conception of Jesus in Mary (all others are conceived in sin),

This does not require God to know the future. It doesn't require the future to be settled or known.

It simply requires a woman to be willing to submit to her Creator for Him to bring about His plan.

Joshua 11:20 (God hardened their hearts),

Do you think that means that God has some kind of hardening agent? Or that He mysteriously manipulates them into becoming hardened?

Or could it be that "God hardened their hearts" is just saying "what God did made them harden their hearts against Him"?

We mere mortals harden hearts all the time.

A politician hardens his opponents' hearts just by speaking.
A scam televangelist hardens the hearts of millions against God.

So of course, the plagues that mocked the gods of the egyptians would of course result in God hardening pharaoh's heart, and even for the nations who were already against Israel to harden their hearts.

and many other instances where He directly intervenes with the choices of man to fulfill His promises and will.

God intervening is evidence for my position, not yours, because I'm the one who says God is free, and the future is not settled.

Let me ask you this:

If Judas Iscariot had repented just before he betrayed Jesus, do you think God would have been angry that Judas did not betray Jesus? Or do you think Jesus would have been overjoyed that Judas chose not to betray him?

All this to say, we are not MEANT to understand God to His full extent.

No one is saying that we are meant to understand God to His full extent.

But that doesn't mean we can't understand Him at all!

In fact, it's precisely because God gave us His word that we can understand Him ON OUR level, because He became a man! He literally condesended to us, so that we COULD understand Him. That's how much He desires a relationship with His creation!

Isaiah 55:8-9
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

AMEN!

God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

They're not lower!

Meaning God doesn't justify evil for His own glory, nor does He send people to Hell for doing exactly what He predestined them to do!

"It is healthy for us to acknowledge that much of God is beyond our ability to comprehend. I dont think God pivoting on our account gives us control over Him. I think when He moves based on our requests, it's both covered within His sovereign knowledge, as well as being an example of His relational nature. I believe they can both exist"

Don't forget to cite your quotes, good sir.

That's from A. W. Tozer.

What he's presenting is an antinomy, which is a contradiction between two beliefs or conclusions that are in themselves reasonable. In other words, a paradox.

Truth is non-contradictory. If you have a paradox, or a contradiction, then at least ONE of your premises is incorrect and needs to be corrected.

Yes, much of God is beyond our ability to comprehend. No, that doesn't mean we can't understand Him at all.

God pivoting on our account is part of being in a relationship. No, it doesn't mean we will "control Him," it means that we can affect Him (contrary to the concept of God being impassable).

God moving based on our requests shows a change, it shows that the future is not settled, and He is free to act or not act.

His "Sovereign knowledge" and "relational nature" here are what are in conflict here. Whenever the word "sovereign" is used, especially by someone like Tozer, you have to ask "what is his definition of the word."

If by "sovereign," he means, "in meticulous divine control over literally everything, no maverick molecule, etc," that's not what the word actually means, but is the theological baggage that Calvinists bring to the text because it's required to uphold their belief system.

So when the phrase "sovereign knowledge" is used, he means that God knows everything that will happen infallibly, because He's the one who predestined it to happen.

Why is this a problem, and conflict with "relational nature"?

Because you can't have a relationship with a robot. If God predestined everything that will happen, including every decision you will make in your lifetime, and you do not have the ability to choose otherwise, then you do not have freedom.

In order to have a relationship, you must have the ability to not be in a relationship. If you do not have the ability to refuse the relationship, then that's not a relationship, by definition.

For example, if a man finds a woman, and he takes her to his home, and then boards up the exterior so that she can't escape, you would rightly call that kidnapping, and you would rightly determine that the man is not well and be disgusted with him.

But if a man finds a woman, and woos her, going to her time and time again, and forms a relationship with her, and then takes her to his home, but leaves the exterior alone and doesn't board it up, and tells her "you can leave at any time," and she chooses to stay, that's a relationship, and is desirable; the man is not mentally ill.

This applies to both the argument for hell's existence, and for this topic.

I posted a link earlier (and I'll post it here again) that shows how infallible foreknowledge means that men do not have wills.

If a man (or woman) does not have the ability to choose otherwise, then they are not responsible for what they do.

If they are not responsible for what they do, then God punishing them for what they do is unjust.

God is just, therefore men have the ability to choose otherwise, and God cannot infallibly know the future exhaustively.

God infallibly knowing the future, and having a personal relationship with His creation, are mutually exclusive.
 
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