Requested Rebuttal to Graphics Claiming Jesus is Jehovah

[Tambora]

Why do the Pharisees get enraged at what Jesus says? Do they really think he is claiming to be God? No. The fact is that it is Jesus' claim to be superior to Abraham, and to have a longer life-span than any other human being that gets their knickers in a twist. NOT a claim to be God. His argument is that he has seniority over Abraham, and so by the standards of Jewish society, he has greater authority than Abraham.

Aside from being a lousy argument, it's poppycock.
Being older did not make one the greater authority.
If it did, then Abraham's dad would be a greater authority than Abraham.
David's dad would be a greater authority than David.
Moses' dad would be a greater authority than Moses.
etc.

 

[KingdomRose]

Why would Jesus, the Son, claim to be the Father?

The Son is not the Father, nor is the Father the Son.

Yet they are both YHWH.

I don't know why people think that Jesus is the Father. There seems to be some misunderstanding about who the Father is. The Father is YHWH. When you say that Jesus is YHWH, you are saying that Jesus is the Father.

 

[KingdomRose]

No one, but you, ever claimed that Jesus was The Father.

Where do you keep coming up with this false assertion in the first place?

If you believe it to be true then prove it through scripture...

I don't understand your objections to what I post. You see, the Father is YHWH. Only the Father. He is named in 7,000 instances in the Hebrew Scriptures, and one example is where YHWH anoints Jesus and sends Jesus to help mankind (Isaiah 61:1,2). Jesus applies that (one being anointed) to himself at Luke 4:18-21. So how can Jesus AND the Father be YHWH?

This is what Jesus applied to himself in Luke:

"The spirit of the Lord YHWH has been given to me, for YHWH has anointed me. He has sent me to bring good news to the poor...[etc.]" (Isaiah 61:1, The Jerusalem Bible)


You see? Jesus is not YHWH. YHWH is the Father and is distinct from Jesus.

 

[KingdomRose]

KR: ‘The Son is The Father according to The Trinity.’

Apple7: ‘No, He is not.’

KR: ‘This is what the watch tower has always told me.’

Apple7: ‘Then the watch tower is wrong.’

KR: ‘But…but…..but.’

Apple7: ‘Now…if you want to believe that The Son is The Father…..then go find some support scripture for your worldview. Until then, you have been mis-informed.’

None of that is actually a conversation that occurred. It is YOU and others here who keep saying that the Son is the Father. The Father is YHWH. He is distinct from Jesus. I have not been "misinformed," because we believe that Jesus and the Father are two different Persons. Jesus is God's Son. YHWH is the Father, the one true God (John 17:3).

 

[KingdomRose]

'In his convoluted criticism of the straight-forward translation of John 8:58, BeDuhn claims (p. 104) that Jesus’ words[“prin Abra’am genesthy eggo eimi”] (“Before Abraham came into being, I am”) “is fine, idiomatic Greek”. This is factually, linguistically and historically not the case. Jesus’ words sound just as odd in Greek as they do in English, and that was part of the impact of what he said. (See discussion of this in chapter 11 of this book.)
Lest it be thought that here I am, myself, making an unsubstantiated claim, I will quote from no less an authority than Dr Larry Hurtado, Professor Emeritus of New Testament Language, Literature and Theology at the University of Edinburgh. Dr Hurtado writes:
“it is as strange-sounding and mysterious in Greek as it is in literal translation.”76
Either BeDuhn here reveals a faulty knowledge of Greek or he is presenting one of his regular claims that are unsubstantiated by the facts or even go against the evidence. He here rejects the evaluations of the world’s leading experts in Koiné Greek.'

Ref: A review of Dr. Jason BeDuhn's "Truth in Translation"...by Trevor R Allin

I don't agree with anything you have posted. I trust that people here looking on will carefully consider the arguments and not fall into the trap of following somebody just because they are the loudest blusterer.

 

[KingdomRose]

Thus...as we can easily see...it is rather easy to dismantle KR's so-called 'arguments'.

She even defaults to selectively quoting from the watch tower propaganda material which uses bogus 'scholars', of which, are NOT even accepted in secular academic organizations.

What a desperate move...:rotfl:

Excuse me, but the WT didn't give me the information on Professor BeDuhn. I found it on my own. Kindly refrain from your foundationless accusations.

 

[KingdomRose]

Christ said He is "I AM."

I just proved to you that he did NOT. Did you even read my posts? Say, you asked me to reply to your Graphics. I have done so with regard to "I Am" and yet you don't even pay attention to what I have posted! If you are not going to actually read my posts and come up with respectful, meaningful comments on what I said, what is the point of my taking the time to try and discuss your Graphics? I thought we were going to have a DISCUSSION. I guess I was wrong.

 

[KingdomRose]

No. It makes no sense.

"I AM" makes sense.

The point was that some versions of the Bible at Exodus 3:14 use the words "I Will" or "I Shall." That shows that Jesus was NOT quoting what God said to Moses. "I Am" does not make sense either, and I showed that quite clearly.

 

[KingdomRose]

What JW source did you copy all this from? The voice of it is not your usual voice.

I didn't copy it from any "JW source." I tried to make it as understandable as possible. It is a deep subject and takes a lot of explanation. It's not easy to explain the somebody who is used to the milk of the Word and not the meat. I wrote what I thought would be helpful in understanding the subject.

 

[KingdomRose]

Yeppers.
They thought He was looney for saying He was before Abraham.
Lunacy was not a stoning offense.
So there was more to what Jesus said than just being looney about His age.
There was something so offensive in His words that they deemed it a stoning offense.

I explained all that in my posts. You obviously did not read them. I don't see how we can have any kind of a respectful discussion here. I write something with effort and honesty and then you guys don't even read it and come back at me to just tear me down. I'm not going on to the next subject in the Graphics because you don't even read my posts.

 

[KingdomRose]

Aside from being a lousy argument, it's poppycock.
Being older did not make one the greater authority.
If it did, then Abraham's dad would be a greater authority than Abraham.
David's dad would be a greater authority than David.
Moses' dad would be a greater authority than Moses.
etc.

You post poppycock. Jesus' claim to be in existence before Abraham showed the Pharisees that he was superior to Abraham. You don't get it? If he existed before Abraham, that meant that he was a super-human individual, not just a regular man. They didn't like that, because he placed himself above Abraham and therefore might have a few things to say about THEM, hypocrites that they were. You understand so little, even when explained to you. I don't want to waste my time trying to have a civil discussion with you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't know why people think that Jesus is the Father.

No trinitarian thinks that Jesus is the Father. Yet another straw man.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about who the Father is. The Father is YHWH.

No Trinitarian denies this.

When you say that Jesus is YHWH, you are saying that Jesus is the Father.

No, We are not.

When we say that the Father is YHWH, we are saying that the Father is the FIRST PERSON of the TRIUNE GOD (YHWH).

When we say that the Son (Jesus) is YHWH, we are saying that the Son is the SECOND PERSON of the TRIUNE GOD (YHWH).

When we say that the Holy Spirit is YHWH, we are saying that the Holy Spirit is the THIRD PERSON of the TRIUNE GOD (YHWH).

Get it right, maybe you'll understand it then.

I don't understand your objections to what I post. You see, the Father is YHWH.

We agree that the Father is YHWH. You don't seem to get, though, that the Father is only the FIRST PERSON of the Triune YHWH.

Only the Father.

YES, ONLY THE FATHER, AND ONLY THE SON, AND ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT, IS YHWH.

BECAUSE YHWH IS TRIUNE!

He is named in 7,000 instances in the Hebrew Scriptures, and one example is where YHWH anoints Jesus and sends Jesus to help mankind (Isaiah 61:1,2).

Yup, you completely ignore the context of that verse, just as I pointed out the last time you referenced it.

Jesus applies that (one being anointed) to himself at Luke 4:18-21. So how can Jesus AND the Father be YHWH?

BECAUSE YHWH IS TRIUNE!

HOW! MANY! TIMES! DO! WE! HAVE! TO! KEEP! REPEATING! IT!

This is what Jesus applied to himself in Luke:

"The spirit of the Lord YHWH has been given to me, for YHWH has anointed me. He has sent me to bring good news to the poor...[etc.]" (Isaiah 61:1, The Jerusalem Bible)

SO WHAT!!! THAT DOESN'T MAKE JESUS NOT YHWH!

You see? Jesus is not YHWH.

See above.

YHWH is the Father

No, YHWH is FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.

and is distinct from Jesus.

JESUS IS DISTINCT FROM THE FATHER IS DISTINCT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT!

YET THEY ARE ALL ONE YHWH!!!

You KEEP IGNORING THE FACT THAT YHWH IS TRIUNE!

The point was that some versions of the Bible at Exodus 3:14 use the words "I Will" or "I Shall." That shows that Jesus was NOT quoting what God said to Moses.

You're making the same claim here that you make when saying that "day" doesn't mean a literal 24hour period in Genesis.

KR: Because "I AM" is sometimes translated "I will" or "I shall" in other places in the Bible means that it doesn't mean "I AM" where it says "I AM".

That's faulty logic at best.

GOD (YHWH, FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT) said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM."

"I Am" does not make sense either, and I showed that quite clearly.

No, the only reason it doesn't make sense to you (it makes perfect sense to us trinitarians why Jesus would say He is I AM) is because you twist scripture to say that Jesus is not God.

You post poppycock. Jesus' claim to be in existence before Abraham showed the Pharisees that he was superior to Abraham.

Superior? That's all you can come up with?

No, Jesus told the Pharisees "I AM" BECAUSE HE IS YHWH.

You don't get it? If he existed before Abraham, that meant that he was a super-human individual, not just a regular man.

If Jesus was anything other than YHWH, His death on the cross would not be enough to save one person, LET ALONE THE ENTIRE WORLD!

They didn't like that, because he placed himself above Abraham and therefore might have a few things to say about THEM, hypocrites that they were.

They didn't like it because JESUS WAS CLAIMING EQUALITY WITH GOD, JUST LIKE PHILIPPIANS SAYS HE WAS!

KR, WHICH ANGEL ever judged any man on HIS (the angel's) OWN AUTHORITY!?

You understand so little, even when explained to you.

This coming from someone who rejects scripture.

I don't want to waste my time trying to have a civil discussion with you.

Before you go, please either accept or reject this scripture:

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him—For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever—That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. . . . But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah - Psalm 49:7-9,15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm49:7-9,15&version=NKJV

 

[beameup]

I don't know why people think that Jesus is the Father. There seems to be some misunderstanding about who the Father is. The Father is YHWH. When you say that Jesus is YHWH, you are saying that Jesus is the Father.

God has a Son. Pretty simple, even a child could understand.
Since God has a Son, the Son must be God as well.

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? - Proverbs 30:4

 

[Tambora]

You post poppycock. Jesus' claim to be in existence before Abraham showed the Pharisees that he was superior to Abraham. You don't get it? If he existed before Abraham, that meant that he was a super-human individual, not just a regular man. They didn't like that, because he placed himself above Abraham and therefore might have a few things to say about THEM, hypocrites that they were. You understand so little, even when explained to you. I don't want to waste my time trying to have a civil discussion with you.

I say poppycock because it is.
First of all, being older does not mean superior.
And second of all, thinking one is superior or a superhuman may make them seem looney, but being looney is not a stoning offense.
What the Pharisees always tried to do was catch Jesus in some offense of the law.
There is no law that gives them any authority to stone someone for being a looney, nor to stone someone just because they don't like what he says.
Your reasoning for why they thought they could stone Him is absurd and stretching the context beyond it's scope, and most certainly is not per law.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I explained all that in my posts. You obviously did not read them. I don't see how we can have any kind of a respectful discussion here. I write something with effort and honesty and then you guys don't even read it and come back at me to just tear me down. I'm not going on to the next subject in the Graphics because you don't even read my posts.

The problem is, we recognize the fact that you are part of a cult, and therefore, have NO credibility.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

KR, you're fighting a losing battle. Your cult has absolutely no validity on a Conservative Christian Forum, therefore, you won't find the respect you crave, here.

 

[musterion]

I just proved to you that he did NOT.

The Bible says He did.

 

[musterion]

The point was that some versions of the Bible at Exodus 3:14 use the words "I Will" or "I Shall."

"Some versions."

The Bible says I AM.

 

[musterion]

I didn't copy it from any "JW source." I tried to make it as understandable as possible. It is a deep subject and takes a lot of explanation. It's not easy to explain the somebody who is used to the milk of the Word and not the meat. I wrote what I thought would be helpful in understanding the subject.

Why'd the mob fall down the moment Christ said I AM?

 

[Apple7]

None of that is actually a conversation that occurred. It is YOU and others here who keep saying that the Son is the Father. The Father is YHWH. He is distinct from Jesus. I have not been "misinformed," because we believe that Jesus and the Father are two different Persons. Jesus is God's Son.

Your JW 'conception' of The Trinity has The Son being The Father.

Thus...you must scripturally prove your world view....

YHWH is the Father, the one true God (John 17:3).

Like a mindless drone on autopilot, you keep defaulting to this one-hit wonder verse....over and over and over...a thousand times over....and always just a name and a number.

Let's clinic you again in the original languages...proving to you that scripture is much more than just a name and a number that you have reduced it to...


Regarding your JW centerpiece, John 17.3, if you were even remotely familiar with Greek, which laughably and proudly you are not, then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.

This can be deduced from a study of the article with multiple substantives connected via kai.


αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον

hautē de estin hē aiōnios zōē hina ginōskōsin se ton monon alēthinon theon kai hon apesteilas Iēsoun christon

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. (John 17.3)


Further proving that Jesus is THE TRUE God, is this passage, that you NEVER bother to reference...

οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)


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