REPORT: Should Gays Adopt? - by Bob Enyart

Projill

New member
Originally posted by Barbiedoll
Originally posted by Projill


Projill, you said:

"That's fine so long as you don't bother me with it".



What then are you doing posting to a Christian website where you know that people believe in God? Just so you can aggravate and aggitate them?

Good question. For the record, I have been participating on these forums for well over a year now. When I first started posting here, I was a pagan. I was first made aware of this website when it was cited on the satire website known as Landover Baptist...I believe it was mentioned on their message board by one of the webmasters, if memory serves. So when I first came to this site it was out of amusement. There was a thread discussing homosexuality so I registered and began debating on that thread. Three of my friends actually registered as well when I pointed this forum out to them. One of them was active up until he really had to start working on his thesis (his handle was "funkyspice") and the other two never posted anything.

Ask anyone who remembers my arrival and they'll tell you I signed up to debate. As I have gotten to know people on here I've become more conversational and less formal in my discussions...a common enough occurance.

My atheism came about largely due to the atheists I've met on this website, getting into reading Carl Sagan, and 9/11.

Considering how screwed up the world is, if there is a god...I'm not impressed.

But due to an overwhelming lack of evidence along with my newfound interest in science and learning, I cannot believe in god.

I hope that is a good explaination. Discussing the god issue with you has been a learning experience for me because you're the first person I've actually discussed my lack of belief with in any kind of depth. I know you must stare at your computer screen like it just started talking to you in Swahili whenever you read my posts because I used to see the world like you do. You've really helped me learn to be up front and open and honest about being an atheist...so for that, I honestly thank you. :)
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Projill

Projill

Which of the following statements best defines your atheism:

"There is no God, that's for sure."

"I have no belief in God because the evidence I have seen so far does not, in my view, warrant such a belief."

"I don't believe in God, because if I did I would have to act differently"

"I don't give a darn, one way or the other."

Feel free to define your atheism in your own words if none of these fits.

Thanks,
Becky

Source of above statements: http://home.teleport.com/~packham/atheist3.htm
 

Barbiedoll

New member
Originally posted by Projill



{QUOTE}Considering how screwed up the world is, if there is a god...I'm not impressed.{QUOTE}

God didn't mess this world up, the human race did that themselves, with the help of satan of course.

{QUOTE}But due to an overwhelming lack of evidence along with my newfound interest in science and learning, I cannot believe in god.{QUOTE}

There is overwhelming evidence everywhere that God exists, you just don't want to see. It will take the Holy Spirit to touch your heart, and He will let you know of His real presence, and then only if you allow Him to.

{QUOTE}I hope that is a good explaination. Discussing the god issue with you has been a learning experience for me because you're the first person I've actually discussed my lack of belief with in any kind of depth. I know you must stare at your computer screen like it just started talking to you in Swahili whenever you read my posts because I used to see the world like you do. You've really helped me learn to be up front and open and honest about being an atheist...so for that, I honestly thank you. :)

No, actually I'm not starring at my computer screen like it started talking in Swahili. I'm not actually shocked at the things you've said, its just that I don't like to hear that junk. You won't realize it, but your kind of thinking comes from satan himself, the father of all lies.
 

Projill

New member
Originally posted by Barbiedoll


No, actually I'm not starring at my computer screen like it started talking in Swahili. I'm not actually shocked at the things you've said, its just that I don't like to hear that junk. You won't realize it, but your kind of thinking comes from satan himself, the father of all lies.

Why don't you like to "hear that junk"? I would hardly qualify my secular worldview is "junk"...it's just the way I happen to see things.

As far as my thinking coming from satan...I'll just quote one of my favorite movie lines: "I know of no god, or the devil. I have neither seen a vision or learned a secret that would damn or save my soul."

There is overwhelming evidence everywhere that God exists, you just don't want to see.

I've looked for proof for years. And I've never seen anything even remotely resembling evidence.

It will take the Holy Spirit to touch your heart, and He will let you know of His real presence, and then only if you allow Him to.

Religious ecstasy and emotionally being "filled with the spirit" is not something Christianity has a monopoly on. All the other world religions feel it too. I don't buy into any of them. One can achieve that kind of euphoria without god.

God didn't mess this world up, the human race did that themselves, with the help of satan of course.

Why would god allow satan and humans to do that? Why would he allow humans to use other humans as weapons of mass destruction? Why would god allow a country to have such barbaric laws that if a woman is raped, she is put to death for it by stoning? Why would god create man and then tell him not to eat from the tree of knowledge? Why does god need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save the human race from hellfire when he was the one who sent them there for eternity in the first place? Why would he care whether or not we believed in him to the degree that he has instilled so much fear in you that you see satan everywhere. Even in my posts.

Why, Barbie? And why would a god like that be worth worshipping?
 
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Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Projill, before you mock, consider....

Projill, before you mock, consider....

You said, “I've looked for proof for years. And I've never seen anything even remotely resembling evidence.”

Perhaps you have misinterpreted the evidence. The Bible says some pretty amazing things about this universe we live in. For example, it says “since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.” (Rom 1:20)

Take the butterfly as a one small example. The butterfly comes into the world as a greedy, earthbound creature, only concerned with filling itself. But then something amazing happens. It builds itself a chrysalis which looks suspiciously like a sarcophagus. By means not fully understood, the creature emerges from its “sarcophagus,” now transformed into a beautiful, new creation, no longer bound to the earth.

That is the promise of the resurrection. Those who have faith can attain this heavenly promise of renewal:

Rom 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So, what appears to you to be just another product of evolution is actually a piece of the evidence. God has given us many analogies of our heavenly hope if we would only recognize them for what they are.

d_plexipPupa.gif
 
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Barbiedoll

New member
Re: Projill, before you mock, consider....

Re: Projill, before you mock, consider....

Originally posted by Becky


Perhaps you have misinterpreted the evidence. The Bible says some pretty amazing things about this universe we live in. For example, it says “since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.” (Rom 1:20)

Take the butterfly as a one small example. The butterfly comes into the world as a greedy, earthbound creature, only concerned with filling itself. But then something amazing happens. It builds itself a chrysalis which looks suspiciously like a sarcophagus. By means not fully understood, the creature emerges from its “sarcophagus,” now transformed into a beautiful, new creation, no longer bound to the earth.

That is the promise of the resurrection. Those who have faith can attain this heavenly promise of renewal:

Rom 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So, what appears to you to be just another product of evolution is actually a piece of the evidence. God has given us many analogies of our heavenly hope if we would only recognize them for what they are.

d_plexipPupa.gif


Thanks for stepping in and helping, Becky.

I just want to ask how do you guys get those pictures of the cartoons and stuff under your usernames on this post?
 

Projill

New member
Re: Projill, before you mock, consider....

Re: Projill, before you mock, consider....

Originally posted by Becky


Perhaps you have misinterpreted the evidence. The Bible says some pretty amazing things about this universe we live in. For example, it says “since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.” (Rom 1:20)

Take the butterfly as a one small example. The butterfly comes into the world as a greedy, earthbound creature, only concerned with filling itself. But then something amazing happens. It builds itself a chrysalis which looks suspiciously like a sarcophagus. By means not fully understood, the creature emerges from its “sarcophagus,” now transformed into a beautiful, new creation, no longer bound to the earth.

That is the promise of the resurrection. Those who have faith can attain this heavenly promise of renewal:

Rom 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So, what appears to you to be just another product of evolution is actually a piece of the evidence. God has given us many analogies of our heavenly hope if we would only recognize them for what they are.

d_plexipPupa.gif

Actually, to me it sounds like the men who wrote the Bible looked to nature for inspiration. The idea of dying and being born again was a concept long before Christianity came along. The pagans were familiar with this concept long before Christ came along. Nature came before the Bible. It doesn't prove it's worth nor does it give evidence of a god.

Of course, it's late and I'm really tired and I have a very busy weekend ahead of me so I might have misunderstood your point.
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Barbiedoll

Barbiedoll

You said, “Thanks for stepping in and helping, Becky.

I just want to ask how do you guys get those pictures of the cartoons and stuff under your usernames on this post?”
You’re welcome. The truth is, however, that projill (yes you, projill) may be beyond reaching. Isn’t that true, projill? She does not want to be “reached” but I’m not ready to give up yet. There have been many times I’ve wanted to have a good dialogue with her, but I was sick for a while and just couldn’t muster up the energy to do anything but read for a few weeks. But now I’m back!

To get those pictures and cartoons, try the following steps.

1. Find a picture you want to use from a website.
2. Click and hold on the picture. A menu pops down from the picture. Select “open image in new window.” The picture should appear in it’s own browser window.
3. Select and copy the url address (for example: http://friends.designwest.com/ruth/images/d_plexipPupa.gif)
4. Now in you post, paste the url address. Surround it by the following bracketed commands: img /img
5. Preview your post to see if it worked.

You can try it on the chrysalis picture for practice. Hope that helps!

In Christ,
Becky
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Hi projill,

Hi projill,

I must tell you that I understand your position quite well because I held the same view for many years. I remember, specifically, standing in my mother’s living room and telling her that the Bible was written by a bunch of men who were only trying to interpret what they couldn’t understand.

The truth is that your comments are made by faith. You cannot be sure that what you have said is true. The Bible never compares the metamorphosis of a butterfly with the resurrection. If they were looking for inspiration they would have made the comparison themselves. God tells us, “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.” Those who seek God can begin to see the incredible mysteries hidden in the creation for what they are. I don’t expect you to jump out of your chair and be amazed. That will not happen!

When I was an atheist, I thought I had it all figured out. You said, “due to an overwhelming lack of evidence along with my newfound interest in science and learning, I cannot believe in god.” That could have been said by me during my college years and early twenties.

Don’t be so quick to think you know it all. If you are truly interested in science and learning the truth, you may be surprised where your education will lead you.
_____________________________________________
Eph. 4:17-19 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
 

Projill

New member
Hi, Becky.

I do assure you, I openly admit to knowing very little. I'm only starting to learn about the complexities of nature. I'm new to the world of science fact and critical thinking. Carl Sagan's book The Demon-Haunted World has made me see the world in a different way. In a way, he looked for God his entire life but, in the end, wound up comparing a belief in God to believing your friend when they tell you that they have an invisible dragon in their garage. If you ask if you can touch the dragon so you'll know it's there, you are told that he can't be felt. When you ask him if the dragon can breathe fire to prove it's existence, you are told that the heat of his fire can't be felt. When you ask if you can put powder down on the ground to get his footsteps in the powder, you are told that you are welcome to do this but that after you powedered the floor you were asked to leave for a short while because he wouldn't make footprints right in front of you. Sure, when you come back there are footprints, but you cannot very well account for the actions of all the people living in the house with the invisible dragon while you were out of the room.

That's how I see Christians and how they interact with their deity. When asked for any kind of testable proof, they never seem to have any. That's my problem with believing in god, especially when something like 9/11 happens.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist and also spent many years being a pagan before I headed down the atheist route. So I've actually been where you are now...I was a woman of faith. But I simply cannot buy that there is an invisible dragon in your garage that breathes fire without heat just because you tell me so and I wasn't in the room when the footprints were made.
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Hi projill,

Hi projill,

Your thoughts are not unreasonable for someone with your background. I was born into a Catholic family (although not devout by any stretch of the imagination) and as a child I had a great relationship with God. As I grew older and my fascination with science increased, I no longer believed that God was anything but a crutch for those who were afraid of death.

I’ve told my conversion story before, so I won’t bore you with the details. Let me instead ask you to consider the following (I call this my “Virtual Universe” analogy). Because it is only an analogy, it does break down on weightier theological points, but I think it is a good model and one that can be especially understood in this present age of technology:

The Virtual Universe

Assume, for a moment, that you have incredible computer programming abilities. One day, you decide to create a "virtual universe" inside of your computer (God, being spiritual, created a "physical universe"). The manner in which you design the universe will be a reflection of who you are, just as a painting reflects the artist. It will be well designed and fully functional, as soon as you run the program.

In this "virtual universe", you have found a way to create "beings", similar to yourself except for their virtual nature. These "virtual beings" are intelligent, creative, emotional and willful (wouldn't that be a programmers dream?). They have the ability to love you or hate you, believe in you, or doubt you. There is one problem, though; you yourself are not a "virtual being" and so you cannot enter into the universe as your physical self without destroying it.

You can, however, manipulate your universe in any way you choose, appearing as a pillar of fire, separating the Red Sea, etc. In fact, you can even create a "virtual representation" of yourself, through which you can communicate directly with your "virtual beings". This representation of yourself would be in complete communication with you, from inside of your computer, similar to what God did when He came as Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
In the mean time, you also inspire some of your "virtual beings" to write a book telling them who you are, who they are, how to make their lives better, and how to get to you. The book is to be written as the events in your universe unfold. (Contrary to what many Christians believe, the Bible shows that God is experiencing events in time right a long with us, but that is another topic.) You can't have them write a book about things that have not yet happened, except to make prophesies and then wait for the right time to make them happen.
Isaiah 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are NOT YET DONE, Saying, `My counsel shall stand, And I WILL do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I WILL also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I WILL also do it.]
Your ultimate plan, of course, is to have fellowship with these "virtual beings" and to someday bring them into your "physical universe". You, being wise and loving, gave your beings freewill. The gift of freewill, of course, has consequences. You do not force your beings to love you, nor will you force them to be with you. Those who don't love you, have in effect, chosen to live without you. (Death, in the Bible, means separation from God.) Those who do not love you will be separated from you forever, just as they chose. Of course, the real torment for them will be in the knowledge of their own sin and the eternal separation from God and others.
Psa. 88:4-6, 8I am counted with those who go down to the pit; I am like a man who has no strength, Adrift among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom You remember no more, And who are cut off from Your hand. You have laid me in the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths….8) You have put away my acquaintances far from me; You have made me an abomination to them; I am shut up, and I cannot get out
Those who do love you, will someday be with you. Although it sounds silly, for the sake of this analogy, imagine that you are able to build "robot bodies" to contain the intellect of the virtual beings who chose to be with you in the “physical universe”.
Phil. 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

So that is basically it. I had to trim this version down to the basics. I hope it didn't lose too much of it's cohesiveness in the process. All in all, God’s creation is about relationships. He created us in His image, spiritually , intellectually, and emotionally. I realize that this an analogy sounds like science fiction, but give it some thought if you think its worth your while, and let me know what you think.
 

Projill

New member
Originally posted by Zakath
Hi PJ,

Mind if I join in???

:D

Hi! Feel free, Zakath! :)

I'm in the middle of a hectic month so I barely get a chance to post on here and I'm barely lurking other places. :)
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Hello Barbie and Becky,

It's me, a poor dumb atheist, who was a Christian longer than either of you has been alive. ;)

Since Jill's pretty busy, and in the interest of keeping the conversation going, perhaps you'd care to spread a bit of your evangelical zeal this way and we'll see what develops.

:)
 

wcgreer

New member
MissedMarks: "I can't see how anyone who has read the Bible could end up thinking this way"

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of
correction shall drive it from him" Pr 22:15

Well okay, that nonsense about shephards rod and all that garbage, or The Liberals Bible pops up, how about this one:

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die" Pr 23:13
 

wcgreer

New member
Originally posted by kiwimac

If not how on earth can you make the statement you just have, there is NO evidence for it in the Bible!!!

Kiwimac
(Was referring to King David's spoiled children not being disciplined)

Try II Samuel and I Kings.
It's no wonder we have such a hard time converting non-believers when we spend so much time correcting the many Christians who don't know the Bible. :mad:

1K1:6: And his father had not rebuked him at any time (by) saying , Why hast thou done so? and he also was a very goodly (good looking) man, and his mother bare him after Absalom.

As I starting writting all of the examples it began to look like more than I wanted to type.

Trying reading II Samuel (most of that book is full of it) and
I Kings.
If you still can't find it after that, let me know.
 

Projill

New member
Originally posted by wcgreer

(Was referring to King David's spoiled children not being disciplined)

Try II Samuel and I Kings.
It's no wonder we have such a hard time converting non-believers when we spend so much time correcting the many Christians who don't know the Bible. :mad:

1K1:6: And his father had not rebuked him at any time (by) saying , Why hast thou done so? and he also was a very goodly (good looking) man, and his mother bare him after Absalom.

As I starting writting all of the examples it began to look like more than I wanted to type.

Trying reading II Samuel (most of that book is full of it) and
I Kings.
If you still can't find it after that, let me know.

Wc...first of all: welcome from one Oklahoman to another! :)

Second, kiwimac has been banned from TOL for dubious reasons at best so if you would care to debate him you'll have to check out "Fellowship" and look at KurtPh's thread to see the link to the site he's now posting on. :)
 

wcgreer

New member
Originally posted by Projill
My atheism came about largely due to the atheists I've met on this website, getting into reading Carl Sagan, and 9/11.

Considering how screwed up the world is, if there is a god...I'm not impressed.

But due to an overwhelming lack of evidence along with my newfound interest in science and learning, I cannot believe in god.

So you think God, who holds the stars in his hand, should take the time and come do party tricks for you?
I also read your previous post about the dragon in the garage 'just believe it's in there'. 'The evidence of God should be evident in all that is around you.'

What does 9/11 have to do with there not being a God? He should have stopped it, right? You didn't mention anything about the Ok. City bombing. Stop that too, right? How about the airplane crash in China? Well then, lets not go that far.
Okay, I see now, 5000 is just too many people, so God should stop that, but not just a few hundred for OK City? Or would Ok. City qualify? Two in a single engine plane, that certainly isn't enough people to waste my time with?

God should just jump in with anyone, anytime, to make sure we all survive accidents, tragedy, and terrorism and live a long life and die of old age. Why does he get to live to 86 and I have to die at 54?
I often try and remind myself, each time I drop my son off at school, I give him a hug and a kiss. I travel a lot, I know that I may be in an accident and may not come home. He could trip and fall down the stairs and die and I'll never get to hug him again.
Because of that, I love my son more than I would if I knew I was coming back today. 'What's the big deal, I'll see you later', well maybe I won't, so I squeeze him a little harder and love him more.

BTW, the world is so screwed up, because countless thousands are looking to Carl Sagan for answers. It is not what God wants for us, but what we make for ourselves.
 

wcgreer

New member
Originally posted by Projill


Wc...first of all: welcome from one Oklahoman to another! :)

Thank you, was here a few years ago, but lost my login.


Originally posted by Projill

Second, kiwimac has been banned from TOL for dubious reasons at best so if you would care to debate him you'll have to check out "Fellowship" and look at KurtPh's thread to see the link to the site he's now posting on. :)

Oh I don't think I'll follow him there. ;-)
I don't get much time to read and post, usually when I get to, I'm pages behind. Will probably just skip 'em if they are more than just a little old from now on.
 

Projill

New member
Originally posted by wcgreer


So you think God, who holds the stars in his hand, should take the time and come do party tricks for you?
I also read your previous post about the dragon in the garage 'just believe it's in there'. 'The evidence of God should be evident in all that is around you.'

The universe as it exists is not proof of the existance of God. And the dragon post is perfectly appropriate. The God the Christians worship is so all powerful that he should have no problem informing the unbelievers that he exists. Why doesn't he?

What does 9/11 have to do with there not being a God?

How could any god allow 9/11 to happen? So many innocent lives dying in a hail of smoke and fire. A woman I happen to highly respect had a family member die in tower two and she still managed to pull herself together in order to help protect the international students she was responsible for not even 24 hours later. She did this because the good "Christian" twenty-somethings from this state were busy working out plots to attack them.

He should have stopped it, right?

Why wouldn't he? God is the Father, after all. Fathers wouldn't allow something that horrible happen to their children unless they were sadistic.

You didn't mention anything about the Ok. City bombing. Stop that too, right?

Considering I knew people who died...sure.

Snipping the rest of the babble for brevity.

You see...that's the thing. It wasn't just the OKC bombing or 9/11 or right to lifers bombing abortion clinics or women being shot in the back of the head in Afghanistan and women being stoned to death for baring a child out of wedlock when she had been raped by her brother-in-law...it was coming to the realization that there was nothing in the sky but air. That all the warring and fighting and killing done in the name of (any) religion is to satistfy the same bloodlust of the war gods we've created for ourselves. Religion keeps us low by keeping us questioning our motives, by making us deny everything that we are and what we feel (and if you bring up pedophelia into this argument you will officially lose all credibility with me because I've been down that road on this message board more times I'd care to recall and it always makes the fundamentalist Christians look bad at the end of the day.) To paraphrase a movie quote: "He gives us all of these instincts and urges and desires and then he sets the rules in opposition." If that is the only god that there is, I want nothing to do with him because he's sadistic and I'd hate to think of going to heaven to grovel at his feet for eternity.

But I don't believe there is a god. And I've never seen anything resembling proof. Why does god say that without faith he is nothing? Because without the faithful he'll cease to exist. Mankind has spent far too many millennia pitting brother against brother and tribe against tribe and they do so in the name of religion. What would a world without a belief in the adult version of Santa Claus who "sees you in your sleeping and knows when you're awake, etc."? Perhaps we might try putting down our petty differences and working to better the world for now instead of some mythic sky papa making it all better in the afterlife.

I often try and remind myself, each time I drop my son off at school, I give him a hug and a kiss. I travel a lot, I know that I may be in an accident and may not come home. He could trip and fall down the stairs and die and I'll never get to hug him again.
Because of that, I love my son more than I would if I knew I was coming back today. 'What's the big deal, I'll see you later', well maybe I won't, so I squeeze him a little harder and love him more.

I admire you for doing that. That's how I live my life as well. I always tell those that I love just that: I love them. My parents know it, my brother knows it, and my dear wonderful friends know it. You're right. You might not see your son again. The difference between you and me, it would seem, is that I don't function on the illusion that I'll see them again "one day in heaven"...because I know that's a pipe dream.

BTW, the world is so screwed up, because countless thousands are looking to Carl Sagan for answers. It is not what God wants for us, but what we make for ourselves.

Carl Sagan was a brilliant man who wrote some brilliant things. So did Gould...so does Dawkins. So do the myriad of people right now who are working with the NASA project to explore Mars. The only way the human race is going to survive (if we don't blow ourselves to kingdom come first, anyway) is if we eventually get off this rock.

The Bible doesn't have all the answers. Science is working on finding answers. Science has done more good for the world than the Bible has. Sure, science is used to do horrible things such as the Hiroshima bomb, biological warfare, etc...But so has the Bible...and I'd guess the Bible's probably done more.

And for all you know, as I've stated before, you have no guarantee that your god is the right one. If there is a god, he could be Allah...or Vishnu...or Cernnunos. You have no guarantee that yours is the right one beyond "faith" which seems to work to oppose reason. This might be a modified version of Pascal's Wager...but it does stand. You don't know nor can you provide proof that God exists without going into some emotive argument.

It's funny that when theists convert their testimonies are all emotional and "full of the spirit" but when an atheist de-converts it's through logic and reason. If the Christian god is real, why would he bother creating logic and reason? There would be no point.

I just don't want to waste my life denying myself my sexual orientation...denying the wonderful pleasures and happiness of life in general...on a mythical war god...especially on one so cruel.
 
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