REPORT: God's plan of salvation

[Ben Masada]

I believe Jesus is who says he is, and that God raised him from the dead, for my salvation.

I accept, without any qualifiers. Thank you Jesus.

Sorry Nick but, you are setting Jesus up for a contradiction. I am sure you not only know that Jesus was a Jew but also that you take pride in that he was. He knew as a Jew that the Jew, once dead will never return from the grave. It means he could not have said that God raised him from the dead because he knew it could
not be true. If you find this message too hard to be true, you can read "II Sam. 12:23; Isaiah 26:14 and Job 7:9." And when you say "for your salvation", you complicate things further. Why? Because Jesus himself
declared that salvation comes only by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. If you also find that hard to believe, read Luke 16:29-31.

 

[Nick M]

Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice....10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

In fulfillment of the scriptures...

 

[Nihilo]

All acts of kneeling before the statue of a human being or animal is a pagan act of idolatry.

What is it called when your Temple is utterly ruined and ground into powder and you don't rebuild it for going on 2,000 years?

Are you implying that Jesus was a pagan? He was a Jew and he taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. How do you explain that otherwise?

The thing about Esau, the Scripture never comes out and says it, but Esau, and maybe his father Isaac too, since Esau apparently took after his father; at least, that's what I gather, from that Isaac preferred the food that Esau made for him, over Jacob's offerings; the thing about Esau is that he's just not that bright. It's not that Jacob was particularly clever. But Esau should have known that he'd be better off making his mother happy, than his father. It's how the prophecy came true: "The elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:23

I believe that HaShem is All-Powerful to do any thing He wants but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. I mean by this that He did not become flesh in Jesus as it would be a pagan act of blasphemy if you read Isaiah 46:5. Regarding the Christian Church, I have already told you before that Jesus never had any thing to do with Christianity. He never even dreamed that Paul would ever found that church. (Acts 11:26)

I believe that our Maker is the Trinity.

 

[Ben Masada]

Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice....10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

In fulfillment of the scriptures...

Hi Nick, I agree with you about the incident of Jonah, though not because it happened literally but because of Numbers 12:6. We read there instructions from HaShem with regards to His prophets. He said, "If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision and will speak to him in a dream. That's what happened to Jonah. He never even left his bedroom to take a sheep to Nineveh. It was all in a dream. To run away from his mission as a prophet, he went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish to hide himself from the Lord. Once in the ship, he went down, laid down and continued fast asleep while the dream proceeded. When he woke up, he considered his dream and took God's will for granted as Nineveh was concerned. Then, he went on with his prophetic mission; to Nineveh and Nineveh was saved. But, literally, he was never in the belly of the fish.

 

[Ben Masada]

Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice....10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

In fulfillment of the scriptures...

Hi Nick, I agree with you about the incident of Jonah, though not because it happened literally but because of Numbers 12:6. We read there instructions from HaShem with regards to His prophets. He said, "If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision and will speak to him in a vision. That's what happened to Jonah. He never even left his bedroom to take a sheep to Nineveh. It was all in a dream. To run away from his mission as a prophet, he went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish to hide from the Lord. Once in the ship, he went down in the ship lay down and continued fast asleep while the dream proceed. When he woke up, he considered his dream and took God's will for granted as Nineveh was concerned. Then, he went one with his prophetic mission; went to Nineveh and Nineveh was saved. But, literally, he was never in the belly of the fish.

 

[Ben Masada]

What is it called when your Temple is utterly ruined and ground into powder and you don't rebuild it for going on 2,000 years?
The thing about Esau, the Scripture never comes out and says it, but Esau, and maybe his father Isaac too, since Esau apparently took after his father; at least, that's what I gather, from that Isaac preferred the food that Esau made for him, over Jacob's offerings; the thing about Esau is that he's just not that bright. It's not that Jacob was particularly clever. But Esau should have known that he'd be better off making his mother happy, than his father. It's how the prophecy came true: "The elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:23
I believe that our Maker is the Trinity.

And now we part ways because I find too hard to fight against faith as faith is the worst enemy of Logic. Regardless, try to understand the Logic of the absolute Unity of HaShem. That's my attempt to reach for the help of Physics although faith
is still stronger.

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

 

[Nihilo]

And now we part ways because I find too hard to fight against faith as faith is the worst enemy of Logic.

No it's not. This is a cop-out.

Regardless, try to understand the Logic of the absolute Unity of HaShem. That's my attempt to reach for the help of Physics although faith
is still stronger.

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Huge straw man fallacy since the Church does not believe in nor teach the belief in more than One Maker. He is the Trinity. Three Persons, One Maker.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

God is spirit.

 

[Ben Masada]

No it's not. This is a cop-out.
Huge straw man fallacy since the Church does not believe in nor teach the belief in more than One Maker. He is the Trinity. Three Persons, One Maker.
God is spirit.

And after Jesus was gone, the Hellenist who wrote the gospel of Jesus said to baptize in the name of God the Father; God the son and God the Holy Spirit. (Mat. 28:19) Since God the Father is a Spirit according to John 4:24, He is the same as the Holy Spirit but. Christians claim that Jesus resurrected and appeared to his disciples for 40 days eating and drinking with his disciples as evidence that he was in flesh. (Luke 1:3) Two in spirit and one in flesh; no longer a perfect Trinity. Therefore, more than one is all that it takes for idolatry. Now it is your turn to explain the Trinity.

 

[iamaberean]

Now it is your turn to explain the Trinity.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

1. Thy Redeemer (Jesus)
2. Holy One of Israel (Holy Ghost)
2. LORD thy God (Father)

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Redeemer is also flesh, for he stood upon the earth in the latter day.

 

[Ben Masada]

I believe Jesus is who says he is, and that God raised him from the dead, for my salvation.

I accept, without any qualifiers. Thank you Jesus.

I am glad you can believe the umbelievable. You believe Jesus "is who says he is" but I am sure you need
all the faith you can get because Jesus is dead and, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 nothing of the likes is to be expected of the dead. I understand you though. You are a Christian and can't admit the truth that
Jesus was a Jew who lived according to the Tanach which teaches that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (2 Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7,9)

 

[Ben Masada]

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

1. Thy Redeemer (Jesus)
2. Holy One of Israel (Holy Ghost)
2. LORD thy God (Father)

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Redeemer is also flesh, for he stood upon the earth in the latter day.

If you read Isaiah 43:1-3, the Lord our God is our only Redeemer. It means that Jesus performed no act of redemption. Also Jeremiah and Ezekiel say in the Tanach no one is allowed to die for the sins of another. It is only obvious that Jesus would not contradict God's Words. The only Scriptures Jesus always referred to as the Word of God, as you must know, was the Tanach. Jesus never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

 

[Nihilo]

And after Jesus was gone, the Hellenist who wrote the gospel of Jesus said to baptize in the name of God the Father; God the son and God the Holy Spirit. (Mat. 28:19) Since God the Father is a Spirit according to John 4:24, He is the same as the Holy Spirit but. Christians claim that Jesus resurrected and appeared to his disciples for 40 days eating and drinking with his disciples as evidence that he was in flesh. (Luke 1:3) Two in spirit and one in flesh; no longer a perfect Trinity. Therefore, more than one is all that it takes for idolatry. Now it is your turn to explain the Trinity.

It's not my job to explain the Trinity but the Church's magisterium, which they do, and have, for centuries.

 

[Nick M]

I am glad you can believe the umbelievable.

Yep. With you, this is impossible. With God, all things are possible.

The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

 

[Ben Masada]

It's not my job to explain the Trinity but the Church's magisterium, which they do, and have, for centuries.

I wonder how they explain the Trinity that you find it so impressive when I can use Logic and Physics to explain the opposite with HaShem being of an absolute Oneness. Let me know if you you would like me to print it here for your eyes only.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yep. With you, this is impossible. With God, all things are possible.

The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

No doubt about it! With God, indeed every thing is possible but one thing, the thing you wish He did or should have done. The Lord does not work that way unless you listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Please, read the quote.

 

[Ben Masada]

No it's not. This is a cop-out.
Huge straw man fallacy since the Church does not believe in nor teach the belief in more than One Maker. He is the Trinity. Three Persons, One Maker.
God is spirit.

Oh! So, God is Spirit, isn't It? Which one, God the Father, God the son or God the Holy Ghost? That's what I take as a straw man fallacy. Sorry Nihilo, but you guys, live all on denial; perhaps to keep the credit with the Church. From reading the "Suma Theologica by Thomas Aquinas I saw no difference in the saying that "There is no salvation in the Catholic Church. This is as equally illogical as the Trinity is.

 

[iamaberean]

If you read Isaiah 43:1-3, the Lord our God is our only Redeemer. It means that Jesus performed no act of redemption. Also Jeremiah and Ezekiel say in the Tanach no one is allowed to die for the sins of another. It is only obvious that Jesus would not contradict God's Words. The only Scriptures Jesus always referred to as the Word of God, as you must know, was the Tanach. Jesus never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Isaiah says the same things.
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Ben Masada]

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

We are all aware that sacrifices were not meant to make us perfect. That's the role of the Law. They were used as shadows of things to come. Neither sacrifices of animals nor of a man's body was never commanded by the Lord. (Jer. 7:22)

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Isaiah says the same things.Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter[/U], and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Now, Iamaberean, all your struggle to understand Isaiah 53 can be strongly minimized if you read Psalm 44:9-24, the Psalmist must have read Isaiah 53 and explained by using the plural to mean the ten Tribes of Israel versus the Tribe of Judah. And every thing happened when the Lord rejected the Tabernacle of Joseph aka the North Kingdom of Israel and confirmed Judah to remain as a People before the Lord forever according to His promise to David that his Tribe, Judah would remain as a lamp forever in Jerusalem. (I Kings 11:36)
And the rejection of Israel so that Judah be confirmed as the one to remain forever as a People before the Lord. (Psalm 78:67-70) If this is not enough to understand, select individual verses and it will be my pleasure to discuss it with you. With such a big post as this of yous, it is impossible to go down into the detailes.

 

[chair]

What is it called when your Temple is utterly ruined and ground into powder and you don't rebuild it for going on 2,000 years?...

I call it a combination of Christian antisemitism and Muslim arrogance.

I suspect that the existence of a Jewish State today is theologically inconvenient for you. So it goes.

 

[beloved57]

The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

This promotes Salvation by works, conditioned on the sinner, what he or she does, this is a false way of salvation !