Lon
Well-known member
Yup.
Reformed Protestant checking in!
- Thread starter ChristianVox
- Start date
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Some of the anti-Open Theism lit confuses it with Process Thought. Clark Pinnock has shown the differences between Process and Open Theism (we also consider it heretical). Socians denied the Deity of Christ whereas Open Theists are fully orthodox on essential truth. One point of similarity does not mean identical or guilt by association.
If you want more Calvinists and less Open Theists, go to CARM.
Open Theism is a more coherent, biblical form of free will theism.
There is a difference between Calvinistic creeds and common creeds we can all agree on (Apostle's, etc.).
Calvinists arrogantly want to shut down dialogue. They are also against Arminians and have been known to misunderstand and misrepresent both views.
Compatibilism is not genuine freedom and deterministic views are not the biblical model of sovereignty. Carson has some mental strength, but is wrong on this point. Others have probably done their doctorates refuting him or presenting the opposite view with solid arguments and Scripture.
You are much too prone to beating your chest too soon. You underestimate the strength of alternate views and the problems with your own view.
You and AMR will get along fine, for awhile.
rainee
New member
Hi Mr Godrulz,
I don't know even half of the things spoken of here on this forum by you and many others , such as MAD for example - I'm just now learning of that. And there are other terms too and names. Like I don't know what CARM is, nor do I really understand what Open Theism is.
But I'm not a scholar in the Reformed faith either, not knowing a lot of names or facts or things of that nature.
But I believe this: All Christian Theology comes down to understanding the Scriptures - and not just that - but understanding them in principle and concept too.
So all I got out of what you said in the first part of your post was there is a "Biblical form of free will" that you hold to, yes?
Well, ok, I can work with that somewhat!
In some parts of the Bible - you have an apparent easy street with
this idea.
The place I have a problem is how you think man is different from Adam and Eve now after the fall?
The humanist answer is man is better.
Because that is what man and woman would have to be - yes?
In order to not make the mistakes Adam and Eve made?
And this is the term I wish you would consider - the term "humanist."
You see, sir, I fear that many modern believers are not aware of one major reason the reformers popped up like they did. What Humanists were easily believing and teaching others.
One time the devil told Eve everything man could be, have you looked at that lately?
He told her some great, great humanism propaganda. That is how he got her to eat the fruit. I believe she understood exactly what he was saying (except for the implication that God did not love them - I think she did not get that, but I don't know, maybe she did after all.)
Today what I hear is not on such a grand level, it is on a much smaller scale.
If I understand it correctly:
If you hear the Gospel you can decide whether you will believe it or not.
As a human, you will decide if you believe in God or not.
And because we are now The Great Humanity - what else is it we can do that makes us like our own gods in our lives? I fail to know.
You see, sir?
This is why I know you are a Calvinist just like I know all of the other believers are, deep down. You are just an offended one, because nobody talks to you about the lie.
Hope you are not angered by this, and in His love,
rainee
I don't know even half of the things spoken of here on this forum by you and many others , such as MAD for example - I'm just now learning of that. And there are other terms too and names. Like I don't know what CARM is, nor do I really understand what Open Theism is.
But I'm not a scholar in the Reformed faith either, not knowing a lot of names or facts or things of that nature.
But I believe this: All Christian Theology comes down to understanding the Scriptures - and not just that - but understanding them in principle and concept too.
So all I got out of what you said in the first part of your post was there is a "Biblical form of free will" that you hold to, yes?
Well, ok, I can work with that somewhat!
In some parts of the Bible - you have an apparent easy street with
this idea.
The place I have a problem is how you think man is different from Adam and Eve now after the fall?
The humanist answer is man is better.
Because that is what man and woman would have to be - yes?
In order to not make the mistakes Adam and Eve made?
And this is the term I wish you would consider - the term "humanist."
You see, sir, I fear that many modern believers are not aware of one major reason the reformers popped up like they did. What Humanists were easily believing and teaching others.
One time the devil told Eve everything man could be, have you looked at that lately?
He told her some great, great humanism propaganda. That is how he got her to eat the fruit. I believe she understood exactly what he was saying (except for the implication that God did not love them - I think she did not get that, but I don't know, maybe she did after all.)
Today what I hear is not on such a grand level, it is on a much smaller scale.
If I understand it correctly:
If you hear the Gospel you can decide whether you will believe it or not.
As a human, you will decide if you believe in God or not.
And because we are now The Great Humanity - what else is it we can do that makes us like our own gods in our lives? I fail to know.
You see, sir?
This is why I know you are a Calvinist just like I know all of the other believers are, deep down. You are just an offended one, because nobody talks to you about the lie.
Hope you are not angered by this, and in His love,
rainee
Krsto
Well-known member
Yeah, that's what happens when a person is more interested in defending "orthodoxy" rather than critically examining it to see if it's really what God meant. Not that you would know anything about that GR, eh?
rainee
New member
And now, Mr Godrulz, now I have to
come back and strip the backs of Calvinists, don't I?
So you whip them.
Yes, sir, I do.
How sad this makes me too. I wish I had never said anything because it always leads to something else.
The truth is our humanity may not work well with Calvinism.
Once we know it is always God who gives the increase - are we good at giving out the Gospel?
Can we muster a "revival" if we realize those we try to revive are after all in Gods hands?
These questions and others have caused me to believe Calvinists should perhaps be required to not join together for three weeks of every month of Sundays..
Maybe it should be more strict than that, I don't know.
But to do this would not require that much suffering really on their part.
come back and strip the backs of Calvinists, don't I?
So you whip them.
Yes, sir, I do.
How sad this makes me too. I wish I had never said anything because it always leads to something else.
The truth is our humanity may not work well with Calvinism.
Once we know it is always God who gives the increase - are we good at giving out the Gospel?
Can we muster a "revival" if we realize those we try to revive are after all in Gods hands?
These questions and others have caused me to believe Calvinists should perhaps be required to not join together for three weeks of every month of Sundays..
Maybe it should be more strict than that, I don't know.
But to do this would not require that much suffering really on their part.
rainee
New member
Oh, my - I left off something from the "not join together"!
I meant they would have to fellowship in other congregations.
And I mean by that they shouldn't tell they are Calvinists
but keep it secret.
Fellow-shipping with non-Calvinists is the only way to keep the two types of believers (the one being grounded and the one floating through air) alive and productive and therefore happy that I can see.
I meant they would have to fellowship in other congregations.
And I mean by that they shouldn't tell they are Calvinists
but keep it secret.
Fellow-shipping with non-Calvinists is the only way to keep the two types of believers (the one being grounded and the one floating through air) alive and productive and therefore happy that I can see.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Welcome to TOL ChristianVox,
I am also of the Reformed Faith, aka a "Calvinist."
It seems that God is adding to our numbers on this site. That encourages me, and I hope that I can be of spiritual support to you as you confront the various views represented here.
I hold to the Three Forms of Unity as well as the Westminster Confession of Faith. My husband and I teach the five points of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) online, and my interest and emphasis is in Covenant Theology.
May God give you much wisdom as your post, and may He bless your witness.
Nang
I am also of the Reformed Faith, aka a "Calvinist."
It seems that God is adding to our numbers on this site. That encourages me, and I hope that I can be of spiritual support to you as you confront the various views represented here.
I hold to the Three Forms of Unity as well as the Westminster Confession of Faith. My husband and I teach the five points of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) online, and my interest and emphasis is in Covenant Theology.
May God give you much wisdom as your post, and may He bless your witness.
Nang
rainee
New member
Hi Mr Godrulz,
lol
I see I didn't win you over yet, eh?
Well that is ok.
Maybe Calvinists can use some tweaking on parts?
One of the current problems I have is understanding I was raised to
see the Sovereign Lord as, well, sovereign.
What I personally don't remember being taught is that this is a struggle of light against darkness.
He is sovereign, but He apparently has us here to be as lights in a dark world so that whomsoever may come out of the dark, will come out of the dark - and join the light and become part of the light themselves.
You see, I think (and could be oh so wrong,) but I think the Reformers worked on the doctrines of justification and eternal security and things like that all from the personal salvation level.
Can you imagine that? Being persecuted, fighting for their life and the truth - and yet not getting to the warfare part of the Scriptures in the NT? Of course maybe I am wrong and they did cover that, I don't know.
But Paul definitely teaches some essential light and darkness struggling that I remember us just skimming over.
And meanwhile my pastor and elders were like caged polar bears, imho. And nothing good comes from idle non growing stale no longer satisfied stagnant men of God.
Of course, I believe you said you were Charismatic?
I remember when that wave came down and hit our area splitting churches around us by numbers that seemed in hundreds.
After a while we were surrounded by Charismatic congregations, they were the only churches growing.
So my people were not the only ones feeling stagnant. I hold the Charismatic movement as a sure sign we all needed to grow yet again as believers by a leap and a bound and draw more from the Scriptures, test more, learn more.
Yes but you need me. And maybe I need you. We test what is right and what is wrong in what we each of us have taken from the Scriptures when together. Alone what we think can always sound good, isn't that right? So isn't it true of congregations - even dominations - too?
Perhaps God is bringing you here to have your Calvinism corrected?
lol
I see I didn't win you over yet, eh?
Well that is ok.
Maybe Calvinists can use some tweaking on parts?
One of the current problems I have is understanding I was raised to
see the Sovereign Lord as, well, sovereign.
What I personally don't remember being taught is that this is a struggle of light against darkness.
He is sovereign, but He apparently has us here to be as lights in a dark world so that whomsoever may come out of the dark, will come out of the dark - and join the light and become part of the light themselves.
You see, I think (and could be oh so wrong,) but I think the Reformers worked on the doctrines of justification and eternal security and things like that all from the personal salvation level.
Can you imagine that? Being persecuted, fighting for their life and the truth - and yet not getting to the warfare part of the Scriptures in the NT? Of course maybe I am wrong and they did cover that, I don't know.
But Paul definitely teaches some essential light and darkness struggling that I remember us just skimming over.
And meanwhile my pastor and elders were like caged polar bears, imho. And nothing good comes from idle non growing stale no longer satisfied stagnant men of God.
Of course, I believe you said you were Charismatic?
I remember when that wave came down and hit our area splitting churches around us by numbers that seemed in hundreds.
After a while we were surrounded by Charismatic congregations, they were the only churches growing.
So my people were not the only ones feeling stagnant. I hold the Charismatic movement as a sure sign we all needed to grow yet again as believers by a leap and a bound and draw more from the Scriptures, test more, learn more.
Yes but you need me. And maybe I need you. We test what is right and what is wrong in what we each of us have taken from the Scriptures when together. Alone what we think can always sound good, isn't that right? So isn't it true of congregations - even dominations - too?
Calvinists seem to be easier to get along with than Paul people
is that because Calvinists don't hold us responsible for what we do?
is that because Calvinists don't hold us responsible for what we do?
rainee
New member
sigh
Chrys, I am like BEGGING YOU to call me a Paul person, ok?
Ok?
Oh, and reformed too, yes.
AND REMEMBER I also love Catholics and appreciate all the good things that have come from the Catholic Church.
And I do not hold any people of today any more responsible for any part of the past where bad men did bad things than I want you to hold me responsible for what happened in Salem with the torture and killing by so called Christians of people who were so called witches. I can't be held guilty for that.
As for my sins, well I hide them as I hope you hide yours too :rotfl:
so how can I hold you responsible for them??
All believer's follow Paul as he follows Christ. MAD should not make exclusive claim to being Pauline. We are followers of Jesus, but respect Paul's role in the early church/Scripture.
Internet Ministry
New member
Hi, you might want to consider something about ‘forums’?
Do you think that God doesn’t notice believers are just using the Internet as an excuse to ‘avoid’ Having To Physically Go Into All The World and do what Jesus commands [Mark 16:15-18]? Ergo, most believers aren’t joining forums to serve God or experience fellowship in Christ but rather they just want to boast and start arguments and insult everyone who doesn’t agree with their limited understanding of “God” or even worse and perhaps more likely; they were tempted into a forum by the devil to distract them From God?
i.e. Satan doesn’t want Christians going out In Person into the real world and spreading the gospel and edifying and healing and baptizing etc. and the Internet provides the ideal diversion to excuse believers from actually talking with real people In Person, knocking on people’s doors In Person and laying hands on people etc.? Thus, “forums” created to entice idle lazy disobedient believers to cower behind Alias usernames spewing biblical quotes from ignorance instead of declaring their Real names and going into the Real world and serving God as they Really should be doing? So the devil is quite happy to lure naïve believers into cyberspace, away from the real world and thus keeping them from Doing Those Things in service to God “in person”? And as long as people are distracted on the Internet arguing and bible-bashing each other, the devil doesn’t have to lift a finger to prevent “those believers” from obeying Mark 16:15-18 because they are already neatly trapped in the “Internet” and they may never learn how to truly Walk in Christ? In other words, their faith is so weak that they couldn’t preach anything to anyone In Person even if they wanted to and they probably never even spoke one prayer to God asking him to bless them with the ‘power’ to go out and interact with people Face-to-Face and obey what Mark 16:15-18 commands and in the end, that neglect could very well cost them their souls?
Some of these forums may also have been created by believers who do not have a ‘leadership role’ in their own physical church or maybe don’t belong to any church? So the “Internet” affords them the opportunity to ‘practice at’ being a cyber-pastor over their own flock of Anonymous cyber-lambs/wolves but they don’t have to face the inevitability of being questioned about what they’re doing and believing and saying because when the going gets tough, they simply remove the topics they don’t like and/or ban the people they cannot face. Likewise, many of the forum members are probably in the same boat and without the ‘power’ to do what Mark 16:15-18 says but a forum also enables ‘them’ to pretend they are wise church elders so confidently quoting scripture while arguing uncontrollably with anonymous strangers who might very well be wolves, for all They know or care to find out?
Too scary for you to believe that might be what’s happening? Are you offended that your forum might not be serving any divine purpose whatsoever and that You might actually have to re-think some things about your faith and biblical interpretation? Shocked that You might need some spiritual correcting or you may actually be lost again? Well I hope you are shocked or at least concerned because that might mean you actually Do Care To Know if you’re believing and doing the right thing in Jesus’ name and that you do want to Listen and Learn and grow in Christ like the rest of us foolish wretches? And maybe you will now pray for God to show you what your true good works might be and bless you to properly serve his will, not Yours? Rather than anonymously prancing around in a forum trying to impress someone with your biblical knowledge because you’re afraid and powerless to face the real world in His name? Or like believers who segregate themselves in forums by denomination, as if to advertise that they might somehow be better Christians than non-denominational followers or that Adventists might somehow be better Christians than Protestants or Catholics might somehow be better Christians than Anglicans or Christadelphians might somehow be better Christians than Lutherans or Baptists might somehow be better Christians than Evangelicals etc. etc. etc.? But there it is! We now have thousands of believers that have migrated to the Internet wagging their uncontrollable tongues (James 3:8) in the vacuum of cyberspace and pretending to be warriors for God but in reality, they are merely deluding themselves? And for all You know, the devil’s minions also created the forum You are babbling in and the yolk is on you? Don’t believe it? If you can’t, then you are ignorant because I’ve witnessed so-called Christian forums where the moderators are actually atheist or worse perhaps and so the joke was indeed on “those believers who participated”.
But what do I know? Anyway, kudos to those responsible for this forum if this topic actually survived their screening process thus allowing members to read it and God to do the moderating? Notwithstanding, I do question the advent of forums and the motives of those who create them since, if for no other reason, that the ‘nature’ of a forum does not promote love and patience but rather conflict, hatred and impatience. So if anyone thinks I’m here looking for forum buddies, friends or pals, let me be perfectly clear. God willing, I’m compelled to be here mainly to WARN those believers who may have been lured here by the evil one and/or inadvertently; about the ‘danger’ of forums and the Internet! Period.
And whether or not the creators of these forums had good intentions, I have witnessed far too much evil in each and every forum I participated in. Without exception, Each and Every so-called Christian forum proved to be little more than a chaotic hostile vehicle for judgmental, hateful, ignorant administrators and moderators trying to play God instead of ‘facing God’s truth’ in obedience to Christ and most members responded in kind because most people weren’t there to blamelessly, harmlessly debate Christianity and perhaps learn something and grow in Him. Quite the contrary, they were there to fight and argue their “limited understanding of God” at any cost and when the Mods/Admins couldn’t support their opinions and/or felt threatened to perhaps being exposed as false brethren, they just removed the topics and banned anyone who didn’t kneel to their rhetoric and man-made rules. Which means they aren’t ‘forums’ in the first place because people weren’t allowed to freely and honestly debate or discuss anything.
So I guess we’ll soon find out if this forum operates similarly and if believers here put God’s Laws first instead of man-contrived-forum-rules? As well, I won’t be posting any further comments nor responding publically to anyone’s threads in this forum either because I’m not here to debate anything with anyone especially in an almost certain ungodly atmosphere like ‘this’ and so as to then perhaps be accused of lending credence to any otherwise legitimate Internet platforms let alone “so-called Christian forums”? I’ve already learned my lesson God willing, about the evil of the “Internet” and those human resources who would perpetrate evil there. Indeed, I’m genuinely repulsed now just ‘joining’ any of these forums in order to “warn” those whom God may wish to be warned? I may not even have any divine purpose for being on the Internet myself but in the event that just one person is properly corrected or saved by doing so, then it was absolutely worth the effort. Hallelujah!
Paul
Do you think that God doesn’t notice believers are just using the Internet as an excuse to ‘avoid’ Having To Physically Go Into All The World and do what Jesus commands [Mark 16:15-18]? Ergo, most believers aren’t joining forums to serve God or experience fellowship in Christ but rather they just want to boast and start arguments and insult everyone who doesn’t agree with their limited understanding of “God” or even worse and perhaps more likely; they were tempted into a forum by the devil to distract them From God?
i.e. Satan doesn’t want Christians going out In Person into the real world and spreading the gospel and edifying and healing and baptizing etc. and the Internet provides the ideal diversion to excuse believers from actually talking with real people In Person, knocking on people’s doors In Person and laying hands on people etc.? Thus, “forums” created to entice idle lazy disobedient believers to cower behind Alias usernames spewing biblical quotes from ignorance instead of declaring their Real names and going into the Real world and serving God as they Really should be doing? So the devil is quite happy to lure naïve believers into cyberspace, away from the real world and thus keeping them from Doing Those Things in service to God “in person”? And as long as people are distracted on the Internet arguing and bible-bashing each other, the devil doesn’t have to lift a finger to prevent “those believers” from obeying Mark 16:15-18 because they are already neatly trapped in the “Internet” and they may never learn how to truly Walk in Christ? In other words, their faith is so weak that they couldn’t preach anything to anyone In Person even if they wanted to and they probably never even spoke one prayer to God asking him to bless them with the ‘power’ to go out and interact with people Face-to-Face and obey what Mark 16:15-18 commands and in the end, that neglect could very well cost them their souls?
Some of these forums may also have been created by believers who do not have a ‘leadership role’ in their own physical church or maybe don’t belong to any church? So the “Internet” affords them the opportunity to ‘practice at’ being a cyber-pastor over their own flock of Anonymous cyber-lambs/wolves but they don’t have to face the inevitability of being questioned about what they’re doing and believing and saying because when the going gets tough, they simply remove the topics they don’t like and/or ban the people they cannot face. Likewise, many of the forum members are probably in the same boat and without the ‘power’ to do what Mark 16:15-18 says but a forum also enables ‘them’ to pretend they are wise church elders so confidently quoting scripture while arguing uncontrollably with anonymous strangers who might very well be wolves, for all They know or care to find out?
Too scary for you to believe that might be what’s happening? Are you offended that your forum might not be serving any divine purpose whatsoever and that You might actually have to re-think some things about your faith and biblical interpretation? Shocked that You might need some spiritual correcting or you may actually be lost again? Well I hope you are shocked or at least concerned because that might mean you actually Do Care To Know if you’re believing and doing the right thing in Jesus’ name and that you do want to Listen and Learn and grow in Christ like the rest of us foolish wretches? And maybe you will now pray for God to show you what your true good works might be and bless you to properly serve his will, not Yours? Rather than anonymously prancing around in a forum trying to impress someone with your biblical knowledge because you’re afraid and powerless to face the real world in His name? Or like believers who segregate themselves in forums by denomination, as if to advertise that they might somehow be better Christians than non-denominational followers or that Adventists might somehow be better Christians than Protestants or Catholics might somehow be better Christians than Anglicans or Christadelphians might somehow be better Christians than Lutherans or Baptists might somehow be better Christians than Evangelicals etc. etc. etc.? But there it is! We now have thousands of believers that have migrated to the Internet wagging their uncontrollable tongues (James 3:8) in the vacuum of cyberspace and pretending to be warriors for God but in reality, they are merely deluding themselves? And for all You know, the devil’s minions also created the forum You are babbling in and the yolk is on you?
Don’t believe it? If you can’t, then you are ignorant because I’ve witnessed so-called Christian forums where the moderators are actually atheist or worse perhaps and so the joke was indeed on “those believers who participated”.But what do I know? Anyway, kudos to those responsible for this forum if this topic actually survived their screening process thus allowing members to read it and God to do the moderating? Notwithstanding, I do question the advent of forums and the motives of those who create them since, if for no other reason, that the ‘nature’ of a forum does not promote love and patience but rather conflict, hatred and impatience. So if anyone thinks I’m here looking for forum buddies, friends or pals, let me be perfectly clear. God willing, I’m compelled to be here mainly to WARN those believers who may have been lured here by the evil one and/or inadvertently; about the ‘danger’ of forums and the Internet! Period.
And whether or not the creators of these forums had good intentions, I have witnessed far too much evil in each and every forum I participated in. Without exception, Each and Every so-called Christian forum proved to be little more than a chaotic hostile vehicle for judgmental, hateful, ignorant administrators and moderators trying to play God instead of ‘facing God’s truth’ in obedience to Christ and most members responded in kind because most people weren’t there to blamelessly, harmlessly debate Christianity and perhaps learn something and grow in Him. Quite the contrary, they were there to fight and argue their “limited understanding of God” at any cost and when the Mods/Admins couldn’t support their opinions and/or felt threatened to perhaps being exposed as false brethren, they just removed the topics and banned anyone who didn’t kneel to their rhetoric and man-made rules. Which means they aren’t ‘forums’ in the first place because people weren’t allowed to freely and honestly debate or discuss anything.
So I guess we’ll soon find out if this forum operates similarly and if believers here put God’s Laws first instead of man-contrived-forum-rules? As well, I won’t be posting any further comments nor responding publically to anyone’s threads in this forum either because I’m not here to debate anything with anyone especially in an almost certain ungodly atmosphere like ‘this’ and so as to then perhaps be accused of lending credence to any otherwise legitimate Internet platforms let alone “so-called Christian forums”? I’ve already learned my lesson God willing, about the evil of the “Internet” and those human resources who would perpetrate evil there. Indeed, I’m genuinely repulsed now just ‘joining’ any of these forums in order to “warn” those whom God may wish to be warned? I may not even have any divine purpose for being on the Internet myself but in the event that just one person is properly corrected or saved by doing so, then it was absolutely worth the effort. Hallelujah!
Paul
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