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You seem to be making my argument for me, no? :AMR:
AMR
Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation
- Thread starter Sonnet
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AMR
Sonnet
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You are right.
Sonnet
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Thanks. Will take some time to respond fully to this and your other previous post.
I don't believe that anyone is actually born guilty of having committed a sin - rather, that we are all born tainted with the tendency to sin. Even Ps 51:5 allows for such an understanding. I am not aware of a scripture that explicitly says that we are born sinners.
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Repeated attempts to dismiss the doctrine of original sin as a peculiarity of Calvin or Luther, Augustine or Paul fail to take seriously the fact that the same assumptions are articulated in the Psalms (Ps 51:5, 10; 143:2), the prophets (Is. 64:6; Jer 17:9) and in the Gospels (Jn 1:13; 3:6; 5:42; 6:44; 8:34; 15:4-5) and catholic epistles (Jas 3:2; 1Jn 1:8; 10; 5:12).
Sin is not learned—it is an inbred disposition. Our kids got their sinful nature from us, we got it from our parents, our parents got it from their parents, and so on, all the way back to Adam. In other words, Adam's fall tainted the entire human race with sin. Both the guilt and the corruption of sin are universal. The apostle Paul wrote, "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12). "Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" (Romans 5:18), meaning we inherited the guilt of sin. And "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19), meaning we inherited the corruption of sin. No one is exempt. No one is born truly innocent.
When Our Lord said "If ye, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children...." Note here that He takes it as granted that the people to whom He is speaking are evil. Their evil is just a basic fact that can be assumed, and surrounding which there is no expectation of controversy. He doesn't have to teach original sin in any sort of lengthy way; it was taught in the Old Testament and could be presupposed in Christ's own teaching.
To deny original sin means one must jump through hoops to make any sense of the alien righteousness the justified possess. It is our Lord's righteousness that is imputed to the believer who is declared righteous by the acts of another, Our Lord. This was Paul's point in the discussion of the first and the last Adam.
We are doubly sinners; by imputation and transmission of the guilt. The sin and guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to his posterity.
We all are constituted sinners by Adam's act of disobedience. It's not that we share in Adam's substance and that our individual being is a subdivision of Adam's substance so that we sinned "with Adam" because we have "a bit of Adam" in each of us. More simply, when God creates a soul, the guilt and sin of Adam is imputed to the person. Imputation goes along with a Creationist view of the soul.
The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate--God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin but we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ. The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important. If we believe that a person is not actually guilty and corrupt until they sin then it would (erroneously) correspond to a view of Christ's righteousness that would require some mediate action on the part of the person responding to the Gospel.
The church has long spoken of these things:
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I see no reason to pick and choose from Scripture using some call for explicit statements and thus assuming things not explicit can be up for grabs according to what feels right or seems fair to our feeble minds. This same tactic is used by the Arians to deny the Trinity simply because the word "trinity" does not appear in Scripture. Sigh. There is a reason these views above have withstood the tests of thousand years of time, so one should tread very carefully before going off on new paths.
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No, merely pointing up your lack of insight as to what Jesus was intending to convey and that by such lack in just this part, the rest of your doctrine becomes a bastardized understanding of the scriptures...
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STOP! No one need go any further to see the error in this, presented by you!
Sin is NOT an inbred disposition. The law of the flesh is what is; "Vanity", which we were all sealed to by Adam's transgression; Self that is to be overcome by living unto God as God explained to Cain, per Gen 4:6,7 KJV. Paul received that correct understanding revealed to us in Romans 7.
Two things are accomplished to our understanding by what God said to Cain: fallen man is capable of worshiping God and that proves he NOT born depraved but rather deprived of the fullness of the intended relationship God purposed for Himself IN man. Enter Jesus Christ 4k yrs later to rectify the situation.
The rest of your post is poppycock birthed from evil.
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Thank you. I believe man is born sealed to the penalty of Adam's transgression, i.e., "law of the flesh", which, when "discerned" as self gratification is chosen, usually ending in sin. Is this not the root of what God was trying to convey to Cain:
"And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Genesis 4:6-7 (KJV)
The born again relationship is no defense against this power except by virtue of what it represents, creates stark contrasting distinctions between good and evil which, when running them out to 'see' where they end, gives one understanding by the Holy Spirit. . . purposed for obedience unto God in the matter.
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Mister, would you understand if I said to you, "you are full of it"? I am "inclined" to believe you wouldn't because you keep bringing it forth that correction as no effect.
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God's Truth
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Those scriptures do not support what you claim they do.
Jesus tells us there are people with good hearts.
Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”
Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
John 18:37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
Luke 23:50 Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man,
There are many other scriptures that tell us of righteous people, and that is before the gift of the Holy Spirit to all believers.
If all only had bad hearts, then why would God search our hearts?
The written word of God says that God searches our hearts.
If all were completely evil, then what is God searching hearts for?
John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."
Acts 1:24
Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
Revelation 2:23
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
1 Kings 8:39
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),
1 Chronicles 28:9
"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Psalm 44:21
would not God have discovered it, since he knows the secrets of the heart?
Psalm 139:23
Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.
Proverbs 17:3
The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart.
Jeremiah 11:20
But you, LORD Almighty, who judge righteously and test the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance on them, for to you I have committed my cause.
Calvinism is a perversion of the truth.
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Why do people reject Jesus? Why do they believe in nothing, or in false gods/goddesses? The Bible tells us why people do not believe. The bible tells us why Jesus does not save many. There is nowhere in the Bible that says what the Calvinists say. There is no scripture that says people cannot obey and be saved.
Those who don't believe and obey Jesus love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost.
They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--
They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him.
That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations,
They exchange the truth of God for a lie.
They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil.
They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God.
They are hostile to God.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
They have been deceived by sin.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Their minds are on earthly things.
When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.
There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
They are stubborn and follow their own devices.
They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze.
They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.
They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward.
They have stubborn pride.
They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.
They are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the LORD’s instruction.
Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?
John 3; Acts 7:51; Isaiah30:9; 65:2; 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; 1:25; 1:28; 2:8; 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19; Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; 7:24; Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16.
Those who don't believe and obey Jesus love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost.
They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--
They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him.
That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations,
They exchange the truth of God for a lie.
They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil.
They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God.
They are hostile to God.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
They have been deceived by sin.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Their minds are on earthly things.
When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.
There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
They are stubborn and follow their own devices.
They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze.
They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.
They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward.
They have stubborn pride.
They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.
They are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the LORD’s instruction.
Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?
John 3; Acts 7:51; Isaiah30:9; 65:2; 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; 1:25; 1:28; 2:8; 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19; Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; 7:24; Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16.
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Without faith, it is not possible to please God. Those who come to God must believe that he exists. In addition, they must believe that he rewards those who look for him. See Hebrews 11:6; Lamentations 3:25; Psalm 33:18.
Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!
2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.
Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to ESTABLISH YOU BY MY GOSPEL AND THE PROCLAMATION OF JESUS CHRIST, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and MADE KNOWN THROUGH THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS by the command of the eternal God, SO THAT ALL NATIONS MIGHT BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Paul says that God made the prophetic writings known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing. Here are more scriptures that explain how we have to HEAR the message that saves: Acts 8:31: 10:14; 11:14; 16:31; John 9:36; Ephesians 1:13; 4:21; Titus 1:3; Colossians 1:5; 1:23.
Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!
2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.
Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to ESTABLISH YOU BY MY GOSPEL AND THE PROCLAMATION OF JESUS CHRIST, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and MADE KNOWN THROUGH THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS by the command of the eternal God, SO THAT ALL NATIONS MIGHT BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Paul says that God made the prophetic writings known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing. Here are more scriptures that explain how we have to HEAR the message that saves: Acts 8:31: 10:14; 11:14; 16:31; John 9:36; Ephesians 1:13; 4:21; Titus 1:3; Colossians 1:5; 1:23.
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Question for AMR:
If Adam had not transgressed would he have aged? If yes, then, at what point do you believe the process would reach a final end? I ask because he and Eve were commanded to replenish the earth. That means babies and babies is not what God is after when He says He wants sons. Ergo, babies age. Babies by virture of the fact they are babies, must learn as Adam learned given nothing is learned or taught by osmosis.
If Adam had not transgressed would he have aged? If yes, then, at what point do you believe the process would reach a final end? I ask because he and Eve were commanded to replenish the earth. That means babies and babies is not what God is after when He says He wants sons. Ergo, babies age. Babies by virture of the fact they are babies, must learn as Adam learned given nothing is learned or taught by osmosis.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Thanks for stopping by with the usual assertion sans any substantive content.
Critics of Calvinism need to master the difference between assertions and arguments. They need to become aware of their unexamined assumptions. The anti-Calvinist needs to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to them, that creates no presumption that their perception is correct. These folks need to become cognizant of how often they beg the question. It's not the Calvinist's job to make their argument for them. Too many Calvinist critics are intellectual freeloaders. We have nothing to work with when these tactics are deployed. Unable to furnish even prima facie reasons for your objections, you fall back on verbal abuse.
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As I have already strongly implied, there is "loads" of it coming from you, so much so that it is impossible to make sure of where to begin the analyzing it all that it would make any sense and be worthwhile in the doing of it. To me, you have lost your mind, certainly your way, in Christ, by prefering Calvin..
Balderdash! That is obfuscation at its best. Because you have nothing else to offer anyone. It is you who has hijacked scripture to satisfy your religious bent.
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Check your pulse. What I understand is that you have no understanding of what the Christian life is to be all about. In fact, I would include salvation in that.
AMR,
I am inclined to believe that Calvin is a tool you use for understanding, but your deepest connection to Jesus is through your relationship with Jesus.
I've been following this thread for quite some time and I hear the Spirit in many of your words.
Forgive me for being presumptive, but I believe you appreciate Calvin, but hold him much beneath Jesus.
You hold the Light of CHRIST much more intimately than the reflection of Calvin.
Would I be correct?
Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
GT,
You believe in faith.
What comes first?
Faith or obedience?
Last question,
Who is responsible for that obedience occurring?
Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
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Kind words there. Thank you.
It is quite simple for me. As do all Reformed, I hold Scripture to be the norming norm in all that I do, think, or say. Scripture is my sole rule of faith. I engage Scripture daily and am changed by it. I also am deeply appreciative of the old paths walked by those that have come before us whose words and arguments have survived the test of time. To assume the old saints have nothing to say to us is chronological snobbery. I take seriously the command of Scripture to take every word captive for the glory of God. That means every word written on topics relevant, whether I agree with what is written or not, for in them are potential nuggets of wisdom that I would be foolish to ignore.
Calvin, Turretin, Beza, Augustine, Hodge, Wesley, Bavinck, Gill, Shedd, and all the others are but mortal and fallen men, saved by the grace of God alone. That some of these men describe a system of beliefs taken from faithful summaries of what Scripture teaches is a gift from God that should not be overlooked. God has gifted some with teaching and exhortation abilities. Why should we deny ourselves of those so gifted? For those that do so, one wonders why he or she even bothers to engage in internet discussions on matters of the faith, for they are participating and often benefiting from the very same "words of men" that they would decry about to others, especially Calvinists, in their feigned self-righteousness.
So, no, Calvin is not my regula fidei. Sadly, such a charge is common among the anti-Calvinists, most of whom overlook their own implied allegiance to one Jakob Hermanszoon. Odd, that is.
AMR